Rape Culture

[Adenosine]

If you have doubts about the statistics I would suggest reading how they got those statistics. The US site I linked to has references down the bottom. The Australian one also has references.

If you have a valid criticism about their methodology I would like to hear it and I'm sure they would too.

[Adenosine]

Personally, based upon my circle of friends, I believe it.

[Adenosine]

I wrote this earlier and didn't post it, but it is still appropriate:

"And now I'm ranting.

But I have cause. Because to Cunt and KacyRay they're sensitive petals who shouldn't be allowed on the internet because they hate seeing the words "trigger warning". But they're victims. Yes, victims. And they aren't "playing the victim card" or claiming the victim card. They are victims.

If someone tells you they have been raped, you fucking well believe them. Because the track record of society there is utter shit and it's up to individuals to change it. If they tell you they have been raped and you dismissing rape culture is making them uncomfortable then stop it. You aren't the victim, they are."

[sparklecat]

Wow, yeah, I can't possibly imagine why a woman wouldn't want to respond affirmatively to some random male relative coming up and asking her if she'd ever been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted. Especially when he goes on to tell her what kinds of unwanted, sexually coloured physical contact does and doesn't meet his definition of sexual assault!

Did you also assure them that you can't imagine anything like that could've happened to them, given what good backgrounds they all come from and how they're not violent, illiterate crack whores? Maybe ask them these questions in front of their other male relatives and partners, who I'm sure totally wouldn't have been the ones most likely to have raped them if they were ever raped? You know. The dudes you're probably friends with. I'm sure those women would never expect that you'd take the man's side and start giving them the third degree about what happened and what they did to deserve it if they'd answered yes.

[sparklecat]

Originally Posted by Adenosine

Personally, based upon my circle of friends, I believe it.

I'd expect the stats to be lower than the reality, actually.

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by Adenosine

In my experience it is those that are raped that find it hurtful. And to them it isn't funny. So what is happening is that others are laughing at their expense. Their worst moment becomes a joke to others. Why is that okay?

Once we start telling people what they are allowed to laugh at, the plot is lost and gone entirely imo. Every joke is hurtful to someone. I, for example, find jokes and sketches about Hitler outrageously funny at times. The whole brutal dictator shtick is funny to me, just because we can point and laugh at some evil shit who takes themselves ultimately seriously. In a way, we take revenge on the truly awful by laughing at it. If I had lost family to that person though then I doubtless wouldn't find it funny at all but that wouldn't give me any right to 'dictate' humour to others.

In the case of rape jokes, I don't think others are laughing at their expense - or if they are then they are simply sick fucks and there isn't much of anything you can do about that. In general we laugh at the dreadful as an odd mechanism for dealing with it.

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by Adenosine

If you have doubts about the statistics I would suggest reading how they got those statistics. The US site I linked to has references down the bottom. The Australian one also has references.

If you have a valid criticism about their methodology I would like to hear it and I'm sure they would too.

Ya, I'll do a bit o research as you suggest.

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by Adenosine

Personally, based upon my circle of friends, I believe it.

I know! Thing is though, when I hear a figure that just doesn't make sense to me, I feel obliged to do some sort of fag packet check.

[sparklecat]

Why rape jokes are not ok is largely because some of the people listening to them? Are rapists. And making jokes about this topic, laughing about it and brushing off anyone who says "uh, guys, I'm really not comfortable with this" as oversensitive or unreasonable or humourless is something that those rapists are going to interpret as you thinking that rape is funny and ok. Rape culture is about the perception we give of societal approval and support for rapists, and blame for their victims. How you intend your laughing at rape jokes isn't the point. How rapists and people who have been raped interpret it is.

It's not about who has the right to dictate what you laugh at; it's about not being someone who enables rapists by supporting rape culture.

[Cunt]

Originally Posted by Adenosine

Okay, but it isn't up to you to decide what a trigger is. To you the telling must be graphic, but to people who have lived it a phrase is enough. And they're the ones who need the trigger warnings. It also isn't up to you to decide what requires a trigger warning such as your claim that they be used for people who may "see something they aren't expecting to find there".

Rape is bad. Really bad. And traumatic. But it's the height of privilege for someone to tell victims that they shouldn't be on the internet because the possibility of them having PTSD inconveniences you.

To be really blunt, if the phrase trigger warnings offends you, too bad. They obviously aren't aimed at you so if you can't handle them maybe you should leave the internet.

This site has the equivalent of a 'trigger warning' right out front. That should suffice.

The internet is not much more censored than this site is. If someone can really be damaged by unexpected discussion of violence, I honestly think they would be better off staying away. At least until they can face the unexpected.

Originally Posted by sparklecat

Please never use that phrase again; cheers.

Go fuck yourself; cheers.

I don't know if you are joking, or have a point to make, which you didn't make clear. If you wonder what I mean, I mean that just because someone claims to be a victim, doesn't mean that they are.

Would you be pleased to hear that someone lying about being a victim was granted 'victim status' and protected from being questioned? I would not.

What if I, a stranger, accused the person you love most of rape? Would you accept what I said without question? Would you want to investigate before believing?

If I accuse someone of a crime - ANY crime, I would expect to be required to provide evidence. Be questioned. Be doubted.

Would you? Or is the claim of victimhood enough?

Originally Posted by sparklecat

eta: also "asks for it" in this context, that'd be good to avoid too! since, y'know, people don't ask their rapists to... bestow victim status and its many benefits upon them.

Some do. Some also simply lie about events.

Then there is the ever so complicated situation where someone gets drunk, has sex with another person, then regrets it. Do you think that the memory of events, in that case, would be very reliable after several years?

[sparklecat]

Some do? Welcome to my ignore list, asshole.

[Cunt]

Originally Posted by Adenosine

I wrote this earlier and didn't post it, but it is still appropriate:

"And now I'm ranting.

But I have cause. Because to Cunt and KacyRay they're sensitive petals who shouldn't be allowed on the internet because they hate seeing the words "trigger warning". But they're victims. Yes, victims. And they aren't "playing the victim card" or claiming the victim card. They are victims.

I love my daughters. If one of them told me they were raped, and that stories of violence ruined their day, I would advise that they stay away from the internet until they could feel safer.

I don't know why you are trying to paint it as hate, I am simply saying that there is NO control on the net, and framing my advice accondingly.

If your daughter cried and had her day ruined by such stories all over the net, what would you advise?

Originally Posted by Adenosine

If someone tells you they have been raped, you fucking well believe them.

No. For me, belief is not volitional. Thanks for the attempt at advice, though.

Originally Posted by Adenosine

Because the track record of society there is utter shit and it's up to individuals to change it. If they tell you they have been raped and you dismissing rape culture is making them uncomfortable then stop it. You aren't the victim, they are."

They are only a victim if they aren't lying, or misremembering, or hallucinating...the list goes on.

I should clear up that if someone is simply hoping for a kind ear, I can offer it. If someone is trying to put someone else in jail, or ruin their reputation, then I have to have some evidence. Case by case and context is important.

Some folks seem to suggest that as long as someone says they have been raped, then they are a victim. I think only victims are victims.

Oh, and 'rape' isn't very well defined, either. Is inappropriate butt-slapping rape? (it can surely be more devastating to one person than gang-rape to another)

I think we should turn down the heat in favour of some light.

Originally Posted by Dionysus

Once we start telling people what they are allowed to laugh at, the plot is lost and gone entirely imo. Every joke is hurtful to someone. I, for example, find jokes and sketches about Hitler outrageously funny at times. The whole brutal dictator shtick is funny to me, just because we can point and laugh at some evil shit who takes themselves ultimately seriously. In a way, we take revenge on the truly awful by laughing at it. If I had lost family to that person though then I doubtless wouldn't find it funny at all but that wouldn't give me any right to 'dictate' humour to others.

In the case of rape jokes, I don't think others are laughing at their expense - or if they are then they are simply sick fucks and there isn't much of anything you can do about that. In general we laugh at the dreadful as an odd mechanism for dealing with it.

Well said.

[Dionysus]

You call that a rant Aden? This is a rant.

Originally Posted by sparklecat

Wow, yeah, I can't possibly imagine why a woman wouldn't want to respond affirmatively to some random male relative coming up and asking her if she'd ever been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted. Especially when he goes on to tell her what kinds of unwanted, sexually coloured physical contact does and doesn't meet his definition of sexual assault!

What a cool picture you do paint. 'Right all you Shielas - line up and tell yer random unca Cephus if y'got sexyoually assaulted - and don't gimme any o yer pussy-assed lies about party fucks neither'. I do actually have people I talk to about any subject with no taboos - or maybe I delude myself

Did you also assure them that you can't imagine anything like that could've happened to them, given what good backgrounds they all come from and how they're not violent, illiterate crack whores?

No, they are capable of speaking rationally without prompting from me.

Maybe ask them these questions in front of their other male relatives and partners, who I'm sure totally wouldn't have been the ones most likely to have raped them if they were ever raped? You know. The dudes you're probably friends with. I'm sure those women would never expect that you'd take the man's side and start giving them the third degree about what happened and what they did to deserve it if they'd answered yes.

Er, no, if anyone assaults my friends I get quite cross about it. Jesus but you must know some god awful dudes.

[Cunt]

Originally Posted by sparklecat

Some do? Welcome to my ignore list, asshole.

You don't think some 'ask for it'? Have you ever heard of people engaging in self-destructive behaviour?

I still don't think rape is okay, but you are denying reality here, sparklecat.

Just because you are mentally sound, doesn't mean that everyone is.

If you, who disagrees with me so clearly, can't stay and talk about why, how would you ever expect my mind to change on these issues?

How can you even be sure we really disagree without more discussion?

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by sparklecat

I'd expect the stats to be lower than the reality, actually.

So 1:2 then? Or parity? Wtf?

[sparklecat]

Dionysus:

Not re- well, yes, I have known some pretty awful people (unfortunately these sorts of reactions don't tend to be restricted to just dudes), but that's not what I was getting at. Someone doesn't have to be awful to not want to believe that a person they care about is capable of raping someone. To have their first instinct be to look for something that explains or excuses what happened, rather than have to admit that, say, their brother is a rapist and deal with what that means, decide how to respond. Or to, in fact, have internalised rape culture and indulge in a bit of victim blaming - which is what all of that skewed-sample-because-I-know-educated-good-girls stuff was - even without intending to. Just like with the rape jokes, it's not about what you mean. It's about how others are going to interpret what you say and do, and what their expectations based on past experiences and our culture are going to be.

Women do not get good, supportive receptions, as a general rule, when they say they've been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted. That's just how things are right now, in our society. Doesn't matter how nice or trustworthy in other matters you've been; this is not a conversation she's going to be expecting to go well. And that's assuming that she even wants to have it in the first place. Or has put that label of 'rape' on what happened to her, herself.

[MartinM]

Originally Posted by Cunt

If you, who disagrees with me so clearly, can't stay and talk about why, how would you ever expect my mind to change on these issues?

Pretty sure nobody expects your mind to change on these issues, on account of you being a) a dumb fucking idiot, and b) a despicable piece of shit.

[sparklecat]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

So 1:2 then? Or parity? Wtf?

No idea (though I think Aden clarified that it's 1/6 in general, not 1/3). But based upon my own limited sample, 1/3 to 1/2 would actually seem fairly accurate. The number of times I've had this conversation come up where a woman describes something that clearly fits the definition of rape, but where she goes on to clarify "but it wasn't, like, rape or anything, just... sex that I didn't really want, you know?" and has most people nodding along is... rather depressing, really.

[MartinM]

Originally Posted by sparklecat

No idea (though I think Aden clarified that it's 1/6 in general, not 1/3).

Depends on the stats. RAINN has 1 in 6, but that's in the US, and only for rape and attempted rape specifically. The Australian stats Aden cited say 1 in 3 women are sexually abused before the age of 16, and 1 in 5 are victims of sexual violence after the age of 15. Put together, that means a lifetime risk of sexual assault of at least 1 in 3, probably somewhat higher. These are all broadly consistent, which given different countries and different measures is a reasonably good indicator that they're decent estimates.

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by sparklecat

Why rape jokes are not ok is largely because some of the people listening to them? Are rapists. And making jokes about this topic, laughing about it and brushing off anyone who says "uh, guys, I'm really not comfortable with this" as oversensitive or unreasonable or humourless is something that those rapists are going to interpret as you thinking that rape is funny and ok. Rape culture is about the perception we give of societal approval and support for rapists, and blame for their victims. How you intend your laughing at rape jokes isn't the point. How rapists and people who have been raped interpret it is.

It's not about who has the right to dictate what you laugh at; it's about not being someone who enables rapists by supporting rape culture.

Welcome to a world without humour. Don't laugh at Hitler - no, you're enabling Wagner-loving genocidal maniacs. Don't laugh at religion - no, you're enabling big-hatted misogynistic patriarchs. Oh, and paedophiles too. And so forth. If you don't like certain material then just don't go there - it's really that easy. No one in their right mind gives any kind of 'societal approval and support for rapists'. Are you seriously suggesting that a total moratorium on the evanescently tiny proportion of humour involving rape jokes is going to affect the incidence of rape?

[KacyRay]

Originally Posted by Cunt

You don't think some 'ask for it'? Have you ever heard of people engaging in self-destructive behaviour?

The way I interpreted Cunt's statement was that some people ask to have *victim status* conferred upon them (not ask to be raped).

As I understand it, it's impossible to ask to be raped. Rape is unwanted sex. If you ask for it... it ain't unwanted. The entire concept of "asking to be raped" is nonsensical. Either it's rape or it isn't.

[KacyRay]

Originally Posted by Adenosine

I wrote this earlier and didn't post it, but it is still appropriate:

"Because to Cunt and KacyRay they're sensitive petals who shouldn't be allowed on the internet because they hate seeing the words "trigger warning". But they're victims. Yes, victims. And they aren't "playing the victim card" or claiming the victim card. They are victims.
"

You're putting someone elses words in my mouth. What I said was that overusing the "trigger warning" trope was silly. I never said anyone shouldn't be allowed on the internet.

And I think Cunt has a point - although I wouldn't say "avoid the internet", I'd say "avoid places on the internet where these issues are discussed in raw form".

If you want to check the news and the weather, that's great. But if you've been raped, and if discussion about rape triggers PTSD in your mind, don't go to www.welovetalkingaboutrape.org, you know what I'm saying?

[Adenosine]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

Once we start telling people what they are allowed to laugh at, the plot is lost and gone entirely imo. Every joke is hurtful to someone. I, for example, find jokes and sketches about Hitler outrageously funny at times. The whole brutal dictator shtick is funny to me, just because we can point and laugh at some evil shit who takes themselves ultimately seriously. In a way, we take revenge on the truly awful by laughing at it. If I had lost family to that person though then I doubtless wouldn't find it funny at all but that wouldn't give me any right to 'dictate' humour to others.

In the case of rape jokes, I don't think others are laughing at their expense - or if they are then they are simply sick fucks and there isn't much of anything you can do about that. In general we laugh at the dreadful as an odd mechanism for dealing with it.

No. This isn't a matter of censorship or losing the plot. This is a case of genuine victims not finding rape jokes funny. I can't imagine any joke about sexual violation being funny. Not at all. As sparkle said it's the rapists that would a) find them funny and b) see than as tacit approval of what they have done.

Laughing at Hitler and laughing at rape is different. Hitler is a person, rape is an event. Hitler jokes aren't especially funny, even when they are mocking his brutal dictator schtick, because he deliberately killed over 6 million minorities.

Again, I can't imagine any joke about rape being funny. Like, I just can't fathom it. Can you find one for me?

[Adenosine]

Originally Posted by Cunt

This site has the equivalent of a 'trigger warning' right out front. That should suffice.

The internet is not much more censored than this site is. If someone can really be damaged by unexpected discussion of violence, I honestly think they would be better off staying away. At least until they can face the unexpected.

Go fuck yourself; cheers.

I don't know if you are joking, or have a point to make, which you didn't make clear. If you wonder what I mean, I mean that just because someone claims to be a victim, doesn't mean that they are.

Would you be pleased to hear that someone lying about being a victim was granted 'victim status' and protected from being questioned? I would not.

What if I, a stranger, accused the person you love most of rape? Would you accept what I said without question? Would you want to investigate before believing?

If I accuse someone of a crime - ANY crime, I would expect to be required to provide evidence. Be questioned. Be doubted.

Would you? Or is the claim of victimhood enough?

Some do. Some also simply lie about events.

Then there is the ever so complicated situation where someone gets drunk, has sex with another person, then regrets it. Do you think that the memory of events, in that case, would be very reliable after several years?

There you go, perpetuating the societal norm that rape victims are probably lying. This is why more victims don't come forward. What if one of your close relatives was accused of rape? So what? Does the fact that you love them automatically mean that they can't be a rapist?

Can you please clear up the actual number of "some do" lie? And if that is the case does that mean that you must automatically disbelieve everyone?

There is no benefit for someone to lie about being raped. As you yourself has demonstrated they are immediately disbelieved and then questioned harshly. How much had they drunk? What were they wearing? Why did they put themselves in that position?

There is "regretting" having sex and then there is the realisation that they were coerced or forced into having sex.

[Adenosine]

Originally Posted by Cunt

I love my daughters. If one of them told me they were raped, and that stories of violence ruined their day, I would advise that they stay away from the internet until they could feel safer.

I don't know why you are trying to paint it as hate, I am simply saying that there is NO control on the net, and framing my advice accondingly.

If your daughter cried and had her day ruined by such stories all over the net, what would you advise?

No. For me, belief is not volitional. Thanks for the attempt at advice, though.

They are only a victim if they aren't lying, or misremembering, or hallucinating...the list goes on.

I should clear up that if someone is simply hoping for a kind ear, I can offer it. If someone is trying to put someone else in jail, or ruin their reputation, then I have to have some evidence. Case by case and context is important.

Some folks seem to suggest that as long as someone says they have been raped, then they are a victim. I think only victims are victims.

Oh, and 'rape' isn't very well defined, either. Is inappropriate butt-slapping rape? (it can surely be more devastating to one person than gang-rape to another)

I think we should turn down the heat in favour of some light.

Well said.

Before you tell your daughter to stay away from the internet though, make sure you doubt her word and question her carefully. That was a shit thing for me to write so I can't imagine actually thinking like that.

Again, you say that you automatically doubt someone saying that they have been raped. That's your default position. Mine is to believe them. The courts, police and defence lawyer will be playing the part of scumbags. There's no need for me to do so too.

Can you point me towards a rape joke that is funny?