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Old 2nd July 2019, 07:31 PM   #449273  /  #1
Zeluvia
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Bet no one actually reads this!

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2019...-creators.html


Another view of the root of the problem, the definition of creating value.

The basis is income produced by equity ownership, which is considered "rents". All real estate rents, and stockholder dividends, ect are this type of "income" which is not Creating Value, it is Extracting Value. Capitalism could be saved, but it won't be, not before the coming apocalypse.




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If value is defined by price – set by the supposed forces of supply and demand – then as long as an activity fetches a price (legally), it is seen as creating value. So if you earn a lot you must be a value creator. I will argue that the way the word ‘value’ is used in modern economics has made it easier for value-extracting activities to masquerade as value-creating activities. And in the process rents (unearned income) get confused with profits (earned income); inequality rises, and investment in the real economy falls. What’s more, if we cannot differentiate value creation from value extraction, it becomes nearly impossible to reward the former over the latter. If the goal is to produce growth that is more innovation-led (smart growth), more inclusive and more sustainable, we need a better understanding of value to steer us.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:20 PM   #449275  /  #2
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Congrats posting another article that is a complete joke - my opinion.

Lots of odd claims complaining about collecting rent - "rents are bad, rents are not true value", to paraphrase.

The closing whine about venture capitalists getting 20% is pollyan-ish and laughable.
Lengthy-careered successful options traders make trades KNOWING FROM EXPERIENCE that they must succeed roughly 1 out of 10 or 2 out of 10 times.
In other words, my child, they, like venture capitalists, lose 100% of their investment about 8 or 9 times out of 10.

Yep, yet another "class warfare" spew by "an economist" making claims with insufficient detail (my opinion - they failed to provide any details for the most part on both stated claims and implied good outcome by way of unstated mythical solution(s)).
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Old 3rd July 2019, 02:28 AM   #449278  /  #3
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Options trading isn't exactly the same thing as venture capitalism is it?


Venture capitalists have replaced in a large part what banks used to do, invest in small businesses and start ups. They may get stock, but it's a limited partnership kind of deal, not publicly traded stock on the market. In it's strictest Shark Tank kind of definition. Venture capitalists DO take risks, but it isn't a blind risk, they are betting on a product, person or business. The problem with them is that there very existence cuts out banks and smaller investors in the opportunity to profit. It's an example of people with too much money and no where to put it in many cases, and the worst case scenario it is abuse of tax laws for sheltering money. But the article didn't say it was BAD, it said that their share of profit was overinflated when the company went public. Because what they have done is loan money to someone who HAD a good idea, or a good product, and what they are collecting is, in essence, rent on their money. Unearned income.



Options trading is betting on the market, either the stock market or the commodities market by buying contracts that bet on the future price of the stock or commodity. This fucking gambling.


Rents in excess ARE bad. Rents DO NOT create value or grow the economy. They ARE in fact an extraction of value. They are investments that are supposed to pay dividends. But increasingly those investments are limited to the very few. And that is how wealth is transferred upwards.


How much stock and equity in income producing properties do YOU own?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 02:44 AM   #449279  /  #4
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“The pride of man makes him love to domineer, and nothing mortifies him so much as to be obliged to condescend to persuade his inferiors. Wherever the law allows it, and the nature of the work can afford it, therefore, he will generally prefer the service of slaves to that of freemen.”



Name that author Mondo : )
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:46 AM   #449280  /  #5
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Re options trading, heh, my buddy/trainer/investment expert made 2 million U.S. dollars on $100K worth of options on Green Mountain Coffee (aka Keurig K-cups) in late 2013 or 2014 (I forget).

So he made roughly 20X his investment because he knew what the fuck he was doing.

Dumb venture capitalists don't last long. It's like venture capitalists are like options traders, like, you know?

The whiny author states that a venture capitalist taking 20% is bad. Doesn't have the integrity to state what percentage she'd allow were she herself the one true all-powerful God.

Adam Smith.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:08 AM   #449282  /  #6
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See, you were wrong Zeluvia, Mondo read your post.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 11:08 AM   #449283  /  #7
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Old 3rd July 2019, 04:43 PM   #449289  /  #8
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Congrats posting another article that is a complete joke - my opinion. This is just a random thing that I got into in order to write it, like how I thought a lot of stuff was stupid, like, oh. Yeah, okay, let's write this article to show you some stuff. I guess, in any case, it's funny to be funny and dumb at the same time as I really hate my guts every day, and have to remind me that I don't have to hate myself, but I think I'm always doing it so I can do better. Yeah, I should really be focusing my energy there, like, okay!

But also, when you talk about how much people love you and how lucky you are, all you're really doing is helping others, because how much more do you have to do to get the attention that most people can give you if you just stay the hell away from me? I mean, why would you take my money? How hard is it just to not talk at all? And you can't even help people by telling them to go fuck their problems away, and then you just turn this into your own personal problem or challenge or whatever your situation is. Why don't we just be on the same page? What kind of a person do you think I am and what are you doing for me? Is this really your situation or is it
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Old 3rd July 2019, 04:50 PM   #449290  /  #9
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^ ^ ^ makes more sense than a genuine Mondo post
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Old 3rd July 2019, 06:28 PM   #449291  /  #10
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Originally Posted by OmicronPersei8 View Post
Congrats posting another article that is a complete joke - my opinion. This is just a random thing that I got into in order to write it, like how I thought a lot of stuff was stupid, like, oh. Yeah, okay, let's write this article to show you some stuff. I guess, in any case, it's funny to be funny and dumb at the same time as I really hate my guts every day, and have to remind me that I don't have to hate myself, but I think I'm always doing it so I can do better. Yeah, I should really be focusing my energy there, like, okay!

But also, when you talk about how much people love you and how lucky you are, all you're really doing is helping others, because how much more do you have to do to get the attention that most people can give you if you just stay the hell away from me? I mean, why would you take my money? How hard is it just to not talk at all? And you can't even help people by telling them to go fuck their problems away, and then you just turn this into your own personal problem or challenge or whatever your situation is. Why don't we just be on the same page? What kind of a person do you think I am and what are you doing for me? Is this really your situation or is it
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^ ^ ^ makes more sense than a genuine Mondo post
Ah no, albeit writ in your typical cowardly trollish outlook, both of you, made even more cowardly by the pretense of being created by an AI.

Half decent effort mimicking a silly AI program.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 06:34 PM   #449292  /  #11
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Re options trading, heh, my buddy/trainer/investment expert made 2 million U.S. dollars on $100K worth of options on Green Mountain Coffee (aka Keurig K-cups) in late 2013 or 2014 (I forget).

So he made roughly 20X his investment because he knew what the fuck he was doing.

Dumb venture capitalists don't last long. It's like venture capitalists are like options traders, like, you know?

The whiny author states that a venture capitalist taking 20% is bad. Doesn't have the integrity to state what percentage she'd allow were she herself the one true all-powerful God.

Adam Smith.

Probably instead of 20%, a reasonable return on investment, based on how much money was invested. Remember, the Innovation, and the Sweat Equity, belong to the person with the Idea in the first place. That is what the article is about, that Innovation and Work should be rewarded far more than having money to throw around. Income earned through Innovation and Work should pay MORE and have bigger tax benefits than Unearned Income, from investment (rents) and gambling (trading).



Her point is that right now,our system favors Unearned Income over Earned Income, and that is bad for the economy in General, and part of the reason for the growing wealth inequality. She doesn't say they are BAD, just that what we currently favor is BAD.


Money makes more money in the form of rent on equity. If nothing is done to correct this natural effect of capitalism, wealth begins to Pool up. As it is doing. Since it is pooling up, it is not circulating, and that is an overall drag on the economy, since your Producers (workers) are not able to Consume at a high enough rate to support everyone having jobs. Of course, this keeps a situation of high demand for workers, which keeps wages low, and this feeds the cycle.



You can see it happening in the stock market. Currently 80% of stocks are owned by 10% of the population. And the number of stocks is way way down from mergers and buyouts. It's not healthy for capitalism to run that way.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 06:58 PM   #449293  /  #12
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Your notions that everyone is capable of innovation if only is juvenile.

Thomas Edison bought inventions for pennies. Were their creators cheated? Nope.

Mark Twain nearly starved as an "innovative" writer. Was he cheated? Nope.

You're just another anti-cap coward. "Reasonable return" are empty words. How much is a reasonable return? Well, you are too much of an intellectual coward to say how much. You've had several chances. Proof of your lack of intellectual integrity, I think.

You also throw out the claim "10% own 80% of stocks". What is the historical data for the past 100 years?

Lastly, do you have a solution where every able bodied adult can earn a living wage?
I don't think we live in a world that can support that.

Recently watched video, which I found believable, that 3.5 BILLION people earn less than $2 a day.

Please tell us how fucking much those 3.5 billion should be earning.

Don't have children you can't afford, and if you do otherwise, don't whine about your decision to have them.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:41 PM   #449295  /  #13
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Ah no, albeit writ in your typical cowardly trollish outlook, both of you, made even more cowardly by the pretense of being created by an AI.

What the fuck. You really don't need all that evidence and evidence alone to get my attention.

I'm not giving you much proof to go along with whatever theory you come up with. In fact, there's still plenty of information that you could tell me about the other two characters. Besides, what if there are other possible stories I can use as evidence?

I can't imagine why you've chosen to do so, because what I actually gave to you on my letter today was pretty solid evidence for the opposite of "solid evidence." That's it.

I didn't find anything in the post that wasn't available before today. I'm not about to give up evidence just because someone doesn't want to provide it. I don't like giving evidence that could be misinterpreted. I don't like giving evidence that doesn't support one theory, like you mentioned.

You've given us all of your evidence for what, precisely? How is it a violation of my privacy for you to provide us with what we've already made up about your characters?

I'm not giving you one last chance to explain your theory before I make my final decision. I may have to come with you
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:42 PM   #449296  /  #14
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Your notions that everyone is capable of innovation if only is juvenile. You think that all of us are just trying to get by." The notion that there are no rules.

There isn't:

If you're starting from scratch, or trying something new for the first time, you're going to face a ton of pressure. You're not going to know everything yet, and it's going to be painful. The first time you do something, it's going to be weird, and it may take a long time. But there's no fear. The fear is when you lose your brain. You're not going to be able to use that knowledge in your own life.

You are, therefore, completely capable of changing. But that changes nothing if you don't use it.

Now, I know you might be tempted to say, "You're wrong! You're wrong! Do I believe in free will?" Not at all. If my goal is to find a path to enlightenment, I believe we all have free will. So do you; you don't "believe" in this stuff.

Some of us, including myself, are working on finding a philosophy that describes everything perfectly, which means I can't understand this argument for free will. What you are telling me is completely true; you think you understand it.

"You're going to
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Old 4th July 2019, 06:56 PM   #449304  /  #15
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You're just another anti-cap coward. "Reasonable return" are empty words. How much is a reasonable return? Well, you are too much of an intellectual coward to say how much. You've had several chances. Proof of your lack of intellectual integrity, I think.

You also throw out the claim "10% own 80% of stocks". What is the historical data for the past 100 years?

Lastly, do you have a solution where every able bodied adult can earn a living wage?
I don't think we live in a world that can support that.

Recently watched video, which I found believable, that 3.5 BILLION people earn less than $2 a day.

Firstly, I am not anti-capitalism. I think capitalism has a place. But I don't believe in any economic system. They aren't things to be worshiped, they are tools to understand and use appropriately.



The fact that every living adult can't earn a living wage is a problem. It is a problem I have discussed before, and would be a problem in ANY economic system as automation increases. Marx saw the problem even with his communist system, and it is a problem that none of the big three economic systems have any answer to.


I would say a reasonable return would be an interest percent tacked onto the amount invested adjusted by the number of years the "loan" was outstanding. For example if someone invests 50k in a start up, they should get paid back at what amounts to an annual interest rate, but instead of being paid back like a loan, they would get the whole thing in either a lump sum or equivalent value of public stock if and when the business goes public. Now if they are an Active partner, instead of a Passive partner, then a straight percentage of the business makes perfect sense.



You go look at the historical data yourself. It has been steadily decreasing, in part because of the last few big bubble bursts have scared the general public away from the stock market. But those BUBBLES are another thing that our current system does WRONG. Business cycles are a natural part of capitalism, but their effects can be reduced by fast-acting government policy. Instead, we have had government policies that CREATED bubbles, and in doing so, enriched a few people, and bailed out corporations that SHOULD never have been allowed to exist or to do the tricky financial things they were doing.

And by scaring average people away from the stock market, more people are now relying on Social Security instead of investing their money in the Stock Market. This is not good policy either. In fact it is downright stupid policy.

We should at the very least learn from our mistakes. But we don't. Idiots like you support deregulation even when we have learned that the regulations are actually PRO CAPITALISM policies. This is because we have money running our government, instead of our government running money.
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Old 5th July 2019, 01:08 AM   #449307  /  #16
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I used to hate banks because I thought they were simply takers, not contributing any 'value'.

Crypto examination made me change my mind about that.

Banks provide a valuable service, and if they didn't, all those smart people wouldn't pay them for those services. Banking is fairly competitive, and the trust and security they sell ARE valuable, and probably valued pretty clearly, since those paying for it are 'voting with dollars'.

Investment is weird, counterintuitive even, but my friend Jesse worked his bag off to buy a condo. Then he rented it out. It's about 15 years later now, and he has continued to earn and invest in rental properties.

Is his investment in those properties not 'adding value'? They would fall into ruin if someone wasn't propping them up with their dollars. Most buildings can't stand unless they have a solid foundation of money.
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Old 5th July 2019, 01:17 AM   #449308  /  #17
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is zel calling us nobodies?
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Old 5th July 2019, 01:18 AM   #449309  /  #18
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is zel calling us nobodies?
Fun fact - 'Nobody' was my CB 'Handle', back when such things were more prestigious.
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Old 5th July 2019, 01:23 AM   #449310  /  #19
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I used to hate banks because I thought they were simply takers, not contributing any 'value'.

Crypto examination made me change my mind about that.

Banks provide a valuable service, and if they didn't, all those smart people wouldn't pay them for those services. Banking is fairly competitive, and the trust and security they sell ARE valuable, and probably valued pretty clearly, since those paying for it are 'voting with dollars'.

Investment is weird, counterintuitive even, but my friend Jesse worked his bag off to buy a condo. Then he rented it out. It's about 15 years later now, and he has continued to earn and invest in rental properties.

Is his investment in those properties not 'adding value'? They would fall into ruin if someone wasn't propping them up with their dollars. Most buildings can't stand unless they have a solid foundation of money.

No, technically he isn't adding value, he is extracting it. But the issue is the Tax and regulatory treatment of his activity, not the activity itself.
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Old 5th July 2019, 01:43 AM   #449312  /  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
I used to hate banks because I thought they were simply takers, not contributing any 'value'.

Crypto examination made me change my mind about that.

Banks provide a valuable service, and if they didn't, all those smart people wouldn't pay them for those services. Banking is fairly competitive, and the trust and security they sell ARE valuable, and probably valued pretty clearly, since those paying for it are 'voting with dollars'.

Investment is weird, counterintuitive even, but my friend Jesse worked his bag off to buy a condo. Then he rented it out. It's about 15 years later now, and he has continued to earn and invest in rental properties.

Is his investment in those properties not 'adding value'? They would fall into ruin if someone wasn't propping them up with their dollars. Most buildings can't stand unless they have a solid foundation of money.

No, technically he isn't adding value, he is extracting it. But the issue is the Tax and regulatory treatment of his activity, not the activity itself.
But he IS adding value. Absent his investment, that property would be a vacant lot. Since he is willing to work his money there, that property is a home for several renters.

How can you ignore the value he clearly is adding? Is everyone supposed to just build their own hut?

I seriously don't get it, but I've SEEN the value he adds. I've also seen what happens when assets are left to nature, because no-one can afford to do that 'O&M' thing.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:21 PM   #449321  /  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
I used to hate banks because I thought they were simply takers, not contributing any 'value'.

Crypto examination made me change my mind about that.

Banks provide a valuable service, and if they didn't, all those smart people wouldn't pay them for those services. Banking is fairly competitive, and the trust and security they sell ARE valuable, and probably valued pretty clearly, since those paying for it are 'voting with dollars'.

Investment is weird, counterintuitive even, but my friend Jesse worked his bag off to buy a condo. Then he rented it out. It's about 15 years later now, and he has continued to earn and invest in rental properties.

Is his investment in those properties not 'adding value'? They would fall into ruin if someone wasn't propping them up with their dollars. Most buildings can't stand unless they have a solid foundation of money.

No, technically he isn't adding value, he is extracting it. But the issue is the Tax and regulatory treatment of his activity, not the activity itself.
But he IS adding value. Absent his investment, that property would be a vacant lot. Since he is willing to work his money there, that property is a home for several renters.

How can you ignore the value he clearly is adding? Is everyone supposed to just build their own hut?

I seriously don't get it, but I've SEEN the value he adds. I've also seen what happens when assets are left to nature, because no-one can afford to do that 'O&M' thing.

Okay well you don't quite understand how it looks in financial terms. If he building something new, then that is creating value. If he is spending money improving something then that is creating value. That value is his Equity. It would be what he would receive if he SOLD the property. It is his "Basis" in the property. When "wealth" is calculated it uses assets that represent Equity.



Now when you rent something, you aren't selling it, you are extracting value WITHOUT selling. I don't know how the laws in Canada are, but here, renting is very lucrative because of the tax treatment. You can get massive amounts of depreciation which cuts your tax liability down to nearly nothing. Many people cheat their asses off on Depreciation of Rental properties. Meanwhile, collecting rent payments doesn't decrease or increase your equity, but renting doesn't create equity for anyone else. If you build properties and SELL them, you are creating value, and the person that buys the property then has their own Equity in an asset, their own wealth. A renter does not.

It's the same with stocks. Stocks represent a portion of ownership, or Equity in a company. When you receive dividends, you are extracting value. When a company invests it's profits in growth, or research, it is creating value. Stock holders are extracting value without affecting the amount of Equity that exists.


The point of the article is that here in the US the regulatory and tax treatment of activities is lopsided and we should make corrections that favor increasing the amount of overall wealth instead of rewarding activities that extract value without creating wealth.


I inherited a piece of land. I did nothing to that land except pay the taxes on it for 40 years. I sold it. I received a VERY nice sum of money for it, much much more than it was appraised at for real estate tax purposes. I paid $0 dollars in income tax on the income from the sale of asset. This has nothing to do with extracting value, but it speaks to how our tax laws favor capital gains.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:37 PM   #449324  /  #22
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Tax and regulatory treatment of his activity, not the activity itself.
But he IS adding value. Absent his investment, that property would be a vacant lot. Since he is willing to work his money there, that property is a home for several renters.

Okay well you don't quite understand how it looks in financial terms. If he building something new, then that is creating value. If he is spending money improving something then that is creating value.[/quote]
He IS spending money improving something. The property he is renting.

Try not improving a property for a long time, and you will see its value nose-dive. Try investing care and cash into an identical property, you will see its value climb.

Why is it so hard for you to wrap your head around? You aren't renting property, I am guessing, since you so casually de-value what that work is.
Quote:
Meanwhile, collecting rent payments doesn't decrease or increase your equity,
I see the above statement as hilariously naive. Collecting rents ALWAYS means your property is being used. To death, generally (use is wear & tear)
Quote:
but renting doesn't create equity for anyone else.
Of course it does. For those investing in the rental.

Quote:
It's the same with stocks. Stocks represent a portion of ownership, or Equity in a company. When you receive dividends, you are extracting value. When a company invests it's profits in growth, or research, it is creating value. Stock holders are extracting value without affecting the amount of Equity that exists.
So those who invest (creating value) should not take some of it out (removing value)?

Why would anyone invest their hard-won resources, if there is nothing to gain?

Quote:
The point of the article is that here in the US the regulatory and tax treatment of activities is lopsided and we should make corrections that favor increasing the amount of overall wealth instead of rewarding activities that extract value without creating wealth.
I'm talking to you, not the article. You can dismiss me as just not understanding 'value', but I humbly submit that if it weren't for wealthy investors risking their dollars, you and I could not be connected this way. Infrastructure is a bit 'spendy' for individuals to build without some sort of investors.

Money, and lending it, has value. You can pretend it doesn't, but you probably use loans and lending very regularly.
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Old 6th July 2019, 12:47 AM   #449327  /  #23
MondoVman
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Southwest Atlantica
The smell of idiocy itt.

If I build a 3 bedroom home, it has value.
If I sell it to you, it has value.
If I instead rent it to you, it has no value, because of the word "unearned".
Fucking idiocy.

Your claims and ideas are poorly put forth. It took how many words/posts for you
to reveal your pain that taxes are "lopsided" and you don't like that? Fuck woman!

Why should a speeding ticket cost me $300 instead of $100. The former is extracting 3 times the value from me than the later. UNFAIR! The roads are already built and paid for. wahhhhhhhhhhhh!

Empty talk from a nobody that extracting value is evil, or least worth way less value than "creating" value.

Building a museum, stocking it with stuff to look at, charging an entrance fee is VALUES (plural) of multiple types on multiple levels.
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Last edited by MondoVman; 6th July 2019 at 12:50 AM.
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Old 6th July 2019, 01:05 AM   #449328  /  #24
Cunt
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
Quote:
Originally Posted by MondoVman View Post
The smell of idiocy itt.
Sniffing...
Quote:
Building a museum, stocking it with stuff to look at, charging an entrance fee is VALUES (plural) of multiple types on multiple levels.
No it isn't you shitlord - it's not adding value because the landlords (museum and artifact owners) are just extracting value to piss away on elitism.
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Old 6th July 2019, 02:05 AM   #449329  /  #25
Zeluvia
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Evil Duckess
Obviously the two of you don't actually HAVE any wealth : )


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