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News, Sports & Politics Hello, good evening, and welcome...

View Poll Results: Is whoring ethically defensible?
Yes 3 75.00%
No 1 25.00%
Bacon and Cheese 0 0%
Voters: 4. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 17th July 2018, 10:44 PM   #434301  /  #76
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Face I'll get to your post when I get home leaving work now
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Old 18th July 2018, 12:03 AM   #434305  /  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
I was responding to your original assertion that legalising prostitution reduces illegal activities. This is false, illegal activity increases when prostitution is legalised because it causes an upsurge in human trafficking.

I should have said, the number of native born prostitutes doesn't tend to increase because of legalisation. The extra demand is met primarily through illegal means by trafficking women from other countries.
That falls largely under the government failing to regulate properly. Licensing, maybe even official government brothels would presumably help to decrease this risk.

Just because someone hasn't done it right yet doesn't mean it can't be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
I can't square that circle.
See my earlier post about consent to sell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
So neo-liberalism would tell us, yet there are women in Germany who sell access to their bodies for as little as 10 euro's. People on the lower rungs of the economic ladder don't tend to behave in the way the economists say they should. People in prostitution tend to be there because as far as they can see there are no other alternatives. Rather than leaving, what you find is that prostitutes will offer more or higher risk 'services'. Not using condoms for example.
How many of those individuals would be selling sex regardless of legality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
Human trafficking is lower in countries where prostitution is illegal. The only way to really answer your question would be to observe what happens to trafficking rates when a country with legalised prostitution, adopts something like the nordic model. I believe the Netherlands is about to do this so in a few years we may have the answer.
Yeah there's not really enough data to definitively say either way, but again, I think just because previous models have failed doesn't mean the idea inherent is flawed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
Get you and your middle classness.
Interesting response though, you've picked three traditionally working class jobs, and these are the ones you're equating prostitution to. An acceptable choice for a working class girl but not for a middle class one?
You're the one who dragged prostitution into the dirt as something someone presumably middle-class or better-off would turn their nose up at the idea of their child doing.

And for what it's worth, if I didn't have my lower-middle class parents supporting room & board for me I would be sufficiently below the poverty line at my current yearly income. So I really don't appreciate your attempt at classist snubbing.
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Old 18th July 2018, 12:27 AM   #434307  /  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timewave View Post
Prostitution is like abortion, it is no one's business except those it directly involves.

Except that if the laws make it more dangerous for the participant because of not having access to legal and medical protection.

Your ethics are pure crap.
It is propagating the bullshit that everyone's opinion matters.
Which is Bullshit and Dangerous Bullshit because terrorists are expressing their opinion all the time in violence.

People who are expressing their opinion on homosexuality being a sin are doing violence as much as terrorists because they are expressing an opinion of what other people should do with their bodies.

Likewise Abortion Likewise prostitution.
Anyone telling people what they can or cannot do with their body are terrorists.
Hence so much of my hatred of religion.
And yes that is a dangerous opinion as well because to me teaching children religion is child abuse and should be illegal.

But then we really should outlaw all religion so where does it stop?
If our current political/economic systems is creating a class of women whose opportunties are so limited that their only way of surival is to sell access to their bodies this is very much the business of all society.

We do set limits on what people can or can't do with their bodies. We tell men all the time that they can't stick their dicks in to the bodies of unwilling women.
If you aren't all uptight and anal about sex being something special, which to many it is not, then selling your body to pay for your university is a sensible choice.

The mistake you are making facetious is that you think that your view is the only possible view.

Believe me, many people really don't rate sex as that important, that big a deal. And there are many prostitutes who see using sex as a way of controlling others in exactly the same whether you are selling it for cash or in marriage.

In Australia where it is completely legal to sell your body, half the women's lib lobby see it as selling out and the other half see it as the ultimate payback.
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Old 18th July 2018, 12:39 AM   #434308  /  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
I am only disgusted by those who think they have the right to pay for sexual access to other people's bodies.
What about those who think they have the right to let people fuck them for money?

Are they universally victims? Or do those people have any 'agency'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post

However, most of the women I knew who were prostitutes were not at all happy with the work and even if they weren't being run by violent abusive pimps or addicts, but were simply uneducated and unable to find other employment, would have much preferred a regular job, even if it was just working in a kitchen or cleaning.
One of the insidious parts of this discussion is that lots of labour work is bloody terrible.

There are several things which I have been paid minimum wage to do, which would ruin other people if forced to do it.

In fact, almost all work is stuff which people wouldn't do. Except for money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timewave View Post
Likewise Abortion Likewise prostitution.
Anyone telling people what they can or cannot do with their body are terrorists.
Hence so much of my hatred of religion.
And yes that is a dangerous opinion as well because to me teaching children religion is child abuse and should be illegal.

But then we really should outlaw all religion so where does it stop?
So does this mean you have found a way to respect folks who hire sex workers?

Or that you don't respect the workers or their customers?
You totally miss my point, they don't give a fuck whether I respect them or not. And it is None of My Business what they do any more than it is my business what a married couple do, unless and except if one of them is being injured against their will.

In Australia, prostitution is legal, brothels are legal, phone sex is legal.
I am an ex-smoker, should I campaign for smoking to be made illegal?
No, it is none of my business what any one else does with their bodies.

We have laws in place now to stop the danger of passive smoking.
We are slowly moving toward legal medical marijuana.
We have shoot-up centres for heroin users.

Your opinion on all these things is meaningless.
Your respect is meaningless.
Can I respect drug uses? Alcoholics? Yes, I can.
Does it matter to them that I can respect them?
No, not unless I am working with them directly.
I can respect people who buy and sell sex yes.
AS zuzu says, it is far less sleazy and honest than politics.
I cannot respect a politician.
They are the only human beings I cannot respect.
But obviously it doesn't matter the least to them that I loathe and would spit on and piss on them if I could.
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Old 18th July 2018, 01:33 AM   #434310  /  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majiffy View Post

Just because someone hasn't done it right yet doesn't mean it can't be done.
The last time somebody said this to me they were talking about how the world would be a better place if we all became communists.



Quote:
How many of those individuals would be selling sex regardless of legality?
Dunno, don't see how it's relevant.


Quote:
Yeah there's not really enough data to definitively say either way, but again, I think just because previous models have failed doesn't mean the idea inherent is flawed.
I'm shocked that they've failed, it's almost like prostitution is inherently exploitative and abusive and brings out the worst sort of human behaviour.

Quote:
You're the one who dragged prostitution into the dirt as something someone presumably middle-class or better-off would turn their nose up at the idea of their child doing.
No, I quoted a brothel owner who openly admits to making a fortune from women who have no other options, but says it's 'unthinkable' for his own daughters to work in a brothel. It's men like him who see two different types of women, the poor ones who can be exploited and used by men, and the ones who have options.

Quote:
And for what it's worth, if I didn't have my lower-middle class parents supporting room & board for me I would be sufficiently below the poverty line at my current yearly income. So I really don't appreciate your attempt at classist snubbing.
You're still luckier than many. You're not on a street corner selling your body.
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Old 18th July 2018, 01:39 AM   #434313  /  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timewave View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timewave View Post
Prostitution is like abortion, it is no one's business except those it directly involves.

Except that if the laws make it more dangerous for the participant because of not having access to legal and medical protection.

Your ethics are pure crap.
It is propagating the bullshit that everyone's opinion matters.
Which is Bullshit and Dangerous Bullshit because terrorists are expressing their opinion all the time in violence.

People who are expressing their opinion on homosexuality being a sin are doing violence as much as terrorists because they are expressing an opinion of what other people should do with their bodies.

Likewise Abortion Likewise prostitution.
Anyone telling people what they can or cannot do with their body are terrorists.
Hence so much of my hatred of religion.
And yes that is a dangerous opinion as well because to me teaching children religion is child abuse and should be illegal.

But then we really should outlaw all religion so where does it stop?
If our current political/economic systems is creating a class of women whose opportunties are so limited that their only way of surival is to sell access to their bodies this is very much the business of all society.

We do set limits on what people can or can't do with their bodies. We tell men all the time that they can't stick their dicks in to the bodies of unwilling women.
If you aren't all uptight and anal about sex being something special, which to many it is not, then selling your body to pay for your university is a sensible choice.

The mistake you are making facetious is that you think that your view is the only possible view.

Believe me, many people really don't rate sex as that important, that big a deal. And there are many prostitutes who see using sex as a way of controlling others in exactly the same whether you are selling it for cash or in marriage.

In Australia where it is completely legal to sell your body, half the women's lib lobby see it as selling out and the other half see it as the ultimate payback.
This idea that women use sex to control others is terribly misogynistic. If it were true then why do women have so little economic, political and social power? Surely we should be goddesses walking among you. Bending you to our wills by the power of our vagina's.

Men use money and power to control the sexuality of women. Prostitutes are mainly female. Pimps and punters are mainly male. You couldn't get more patriarchal even if you tried.

Last edited by Facetious; 18th July 2018 at 02:03 AM.
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Old 18th July 2018, 03:51 AM   #434325  /  #82
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Originally Posted by Facetious View Post

This idea that women use sex to control others is terribly misogynistic. If it were true then why do women have so little economic, political and social power? Surely we should be goddesses walking among you. Bending you to our wills by the power of our vagina's.
The successful ones do.

Lots more frustrated losers than successful ones though.
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Old 18th July 2018, 04:17 AM   #434326  /  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timewave View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timewave View Post
Prostitution is like abortion, it is no one's business except those it directly involves.

Except that if the laws make it more dangerous for the participant because of not having access to legal and medical protection.

Your ethics are pure crap.
It is propagating the bullshit that everyone's opinion matters.
Which is Bullshit and Dangerous Bullshit because terrorists are expressing their opinion all the time in violence.

People who are expressing their opinion on homosexuality being a sin are doing violence as much as terrorists because they are expressing an opinion of what other people should do with their bodies.

Likewise Abortion Likewise prostitution.
Anyone telling people what they can or cannot do with their body are terrorists.
Hence so much of my hatred of religion.
And yes that is a dangerous opinion as well because to me teaching children religion is child abuse and should be illegal.

But then we really should outlaw all religion so where does it stop?
If our current political/economic systems is creating a class of women whose opportunties are so limited that their only way of surival is to sell access to their bodies this is very much the business of all society.

We do set limits on what people can or can't do with their bodies. We tell men all the time that they can't stick their dicks in to the bodies of unwilling women.
If you aren't all uptight and anal about sex being something special, which to many it is not, then selling your body to pay for your university is a sensible choice.

The mistake you are making facetious is that you think that your view is the only possible view.

Believe me, many people really don't rate sex as that important, that big a deal. And there are many prostitutes who see using sex as a way of controlling others in exactly the same whether you are selling it for cash or in marriage.

In Australia where it is completely legal to sell your body, half the women's lib lobby see it as selling out and the other half see it as the ultimate payback.
This idea that women use sex to control others is terribly misogynistic. If it were true then why do women have so little economic, political and social power? Surely we should be goddesses walking among you. Bending you to our wills by the power of our vagina's.

Men use money and power to control the sexuality of women. Prostitutes are mainly female. Pimps and punters are mainly male. You couldn't get more patriarchal even if you tried.
Now that it is legal in Australia several of the legal licensed brothels here in Brisbane are owned by Women.

And it is female prostitutes who are telling us they feel empowered by their being able to sell their bodies on the internet.

You have a very old fashion outdated view of how it all works.
I mean yes, there is still some pimps and slave traders. But there is still housework slavery practiced that cops are trying to stamp out.

Sorry Facetious but I have friends who are prostitutes. They have made a free choice to get money in that way and do feel empowered by and payback timed by being able to do it completely legally.

And it is not me but vocal feminists ho are saying marrage is and has alway been legal prostitution.
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Old 18th July 2018, 06:19 AM   #434342  /  #84
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I actually linked to a study about the upsurge in illegal trafficking after legalizing prostitution from 2013. The results were not conclusive.


But I want to make another point about "illegal trafficking". It is also illegal immigration. Can you separate the people that moved illegally to an area where prostitution became legal from the ones that were coerced to move? You make it sound like tons of slave traders move into an area with hordes of coerced victims. I think the reality is much different. Remember, the coercive force applied is the opportunity to move to a better country.





http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/45198/1/Neu...rease_2012.pdf



And there are studies that show that legalizing prostitution reduces violent crime and rape.
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Old 18th July 2018, 06:24 AM   #434343  /  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
The last time somebody said this to me they were talking about how the world would be a better place if we all became communists.
Western societies are far more socialist than socialism-nay-sayers would like to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
Quote:
How many of those individuals would be selling sex regardless of legality?
Dunno, don't see how it's relevant.
Yeah I can't possibly imagine how your argument about people selling themselves at low market prices as a counterargument to legal prostitution could possibly be rendered invalid if the same exchanges would happen in an illegal market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
I'm shocked that they've failed, it's almost like prostitution is inherently exploitative and abusive and brings out the worst sort of human behaviour.
And yet we have so many other vices that seem to thrive...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
Quote:
You're the one who dragged prostitution into the dirt as something someone presumably middle-class or better-off would turn their nose up at the idea of their child doing.
No, I quoted a brothel owner who openly admits to making a fortune from women who have no other options, but says it's 'unthinkable' for his own daughters to work in a brothel. It's men like him who see two different types of women, the poor ones who can be exploited and used by men, and the ones who have options.
You know what, I'm going to step away. I've gotten this far with you and it's becoming exceeding clear to me that you're not engaging in this honestly and if it isn't fallacies, it's moving goalposts and refusing to answer queries because you don't like where the answer leads.

Peace.

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Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
You're still luckier than many. You're not on a street corner selling your body.
Oh yes I surely must count myself among the lucky ones that lives a life of indebted servitude to banks while killing my body for multinational corporations that don't pay me a livable wage. How lucky I am! Oh ho ho

yeah I'm fucking done with this. Enjoy whatever sense of "oh I must be right" you're probably feeling while reading this.
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Old 18th July 2018, 07:06 AM   #434357  /  #86
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I had a great aunt who was a hooker/call girl in Detroit/Grosse Point. She worked until she was 40. By then she had a roster of regular gentlemen callers.


When she retired, she had enough money to move to British Columbia, buy a nice place, and start a small antique shop.


Some of her regulars even came to visit her there, especially after their wives died.


She died in 2012.



She left most of her money to various historical and genealogical foundations. It was because of her I started messing with genealogy. She loved history and even though she was childless she loved genealogy.


Nope, no disrespect here for sex workers.



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Old 18th July 2018, 07:30 AM   #434362  /  #87
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Further to the argument that marriage is legal prostitution.
It is not that long ago that it became possible for a man to be charged with rape of his wife or viz versa. Until then men could and did force their rights to their partner's bodies without any legal ramifications.

Men and women still do marry each other purely for reproductive reasons, not for love or even companionship. Just because you are in a loving relationship, it does not make it the Norm.

And there are many relationships that may have started out with love as well as wanting to reproduce but that there is no longer any love but they stay together for financial and child-rearing reasons. These sexless relationships are the biggest generator of legal prostitution customers.

This is all the real world that couldn't care less about peoples ethical sensibilities.
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Old 18th July 2018, 04:04 PM   #434403  /  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
I had a great aunt who was a hooker/call girl in Detroit/Grosse Point. She worked until she was 40. By then she had a roster of regular gentlemen callers.


When she retired, she had enough money to move to British Columbia, buy a nice place, and start a small antique shop.


Some of her regulars even came to visit her there, especially after their wives died.


She died in 2012.



She left most of her money to various historical and genealogical foundations. It was because of her I started messing with genealogy. She loved history and even though she was childless she loved genealogy.


Nope, no disrespect here for sex workers.



Thanks for sharing this.

One reason it stings when I hear someone being disrespectful to whoring in general, is that whores and 'their kind' are our parents, siblings, children and neighbours and there is a very good chance that we would never know.

I appreciate that you do manage to maintain a respect for sex workers AND their customers. I just can't yet. Something in my thinking on the matter prevents it (which seems a bit unfair to me...)

I think it's because I don't like that Majiffy feels exploited by their boss, and he isn't even WHORING! Exploitation seems to me something which is not dependent on exposed genitals.

For that matter, I can imagine it being better to be an unwilling prostitute in, say, Canada over being in a different situation in another country. Venezuela sounds pretty rough right now, for instance...
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Old 18th July 2018, 07:19 PM   #434425  /  #89
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Originally Posted by Timewave View Post

Now that it is legal in Australia several of the legal licensed brothels here in Brisbane are owned by Women.
Out of how many?

Quote:
And it is female prostitutes who are telling us they feel empowered by their being able to sell their bodies on the internet.
What about the prostituted women who tell us about their PTSD, and their inability to enjoy proper sexual relationships because of years of having to disassociate themselves during the act of sex? Do their voices not count?

Quote:
You have a very old fashion outdated view of how it all works.
I mean yes, there is still some pimps and slave traders. But there is still housework slavery practiced that cops are trying to stamp out.
Do I indeed. Despite talk of how super empowerfulizing prostitution is, wealthy women are NOT giving up well paid jobs to become prostitutes. Men are not turning to prostitution to supplement low incomes. Prostitutes are mainly low income women. In the years following the financial crisis, a growing number of prostituted women are single mothers. Women who have seen state support slashed and are now unable to properly feed, clothe and house their children. It's not modern or progressive to support a system which for millenia has exploited poor women.

Quote:
Sorry Facetious but I have friends who are prostitutes. They have made a free choice to get money in that way and do feel empowered by and payback timed by being able to do it completely legally.
Through work I know women who were prostitutes and have now made it their life work to help women within prostitution exit from it. Why should I listen to your 'friends', and not these women?

Quote:
And it is not me but vocal feminists ho are saying marrage is and has alway been legal prostitution.
But prostitution is empowering, so this can't be a criticism of marriage, right?
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Old 18th July 2018, 07:42 PM   #434427  /  #90
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Old 19th July 2018, 04:39 AM   #434454  /  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timewave View Post

Now that it is legal in Australia several of the legal licensed brothels here in Brisbane are owned by Women.
Out of how many?

Quote:
And it is female prostitutes who are telling us they feel empowered by their being able to sell their bodies on the internet.
What about the prostituted women who tell us about their PTSD, and their inability to enjoy proper sexual relationships because of years of having to disassociate themselves during the act of sex? Do their voices not count?

Quote:
You have a very old fashion outdated view of how it all works.
I mean yes, there is still some pimps and slave traders. But there is still housework slavery practiced that cops are trying to stamp out.
Do I indeed. Despite talk of how super empowerfulizing prostitution is, wealthy women are NOT giving up well paid jobs to become prostitutes. Men are not turning to prostitution to supplement low incomes. Prostitutes are mainly low income women. In the years following the financial crisis, a growing number of prostituted women are single mothers. Women who have seen state support slashed and are now unable to properly feed, clothe and house their children. It's not modern or progressive to support a system which for millenia has exploited poor women.

Quote:
Sorry Facetious but I have friends who are prostitutes. They have made a free choice to get money in that way and do feel empowered by and payback timed by being able to do it completely legally.
Through work I know women who were prostitutes and have now made it their life work to help women within prostitution exit from it. Why should I listen to your 'friends', and not these women?

Quote:
And it is not me but vocal feminists ho are saying marrage is and has alway been legal prostitution.
But prostitution is empowering, so this can't be a criticism of marriage, right?



Look, you are right about poverty being the motivation in most cases. Desperation. It's the same motivation for a lot of crime, stealing, drug dealing.



The point is: prostitution doesn't HAVE to be a crime along WITH the crime of being poor.


Poor people ARE exploited. Fact. It is the point of having poor people, it is why the system is set up this way. If you want to be upset about what desperate people have to do to get by, fine, it upsets me every day.



But I certainly don't judge them for it and while I believe that some things desperate people get up to in order to survive SHOULD be illegal, prostitution is NOT one of those things.



Give the poor the power to exploit themselves FFS. Don't be such an asshat you want to punish them for being desperate, because that is all you are doing. You aren't helping them by arresting them. You aren't helping them by arresting their customers. You are just adding shit to an already overwhelming stuffed shit sandwich...or don't you get that?


I notice you have engaged Jiffy and TW, but you are avoiding me. Why?


This isn't a feminist issue. It's not about women vs men. Contributing factors may fall under the headline of feminist issues, but making prostitution legal is not one of them.


This is an issue of outdated morality being used to punish people for things that shouldn't be anyone else's business.
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Old 19th July 2018, 05:26 AM   #434457  /  #92
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Points for Face to ponder:


1. How many free blow jobs can law enforcement officers get from prostitutes in places where it is illegal?


Answer: As many as they want.


2. Why do many prostitutes have arrangements with pimps?


Answer: To protect them from violent and deadbeat johns, since they have no recourse to police or legal protects, and to bail them out of Jail.


3. What actually happens when prostitutes ARE arrested?



Answer: They are bailed out and pay a fine. And sometimes a lawyer. That's right, the legal system and the state MAKE money from prostitution too.



https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0a62d0987af79


Read down to the part where the Cook County made $132,000 in fines in one sting operation from arresting guys that thought they were hiring a hooker.



You can also read how the stats for "human trafficking" are unreliable. And of course, if law enforcement is PROFITING from something being illegal, they would want to fudge stats to KEEP it illegal.


You can also follow up where the hookers had to go to rehab, then find out that the company that runs the rehab is a supporter of local politicians, and the hookers have to pay for their own rehab. Nice feedback loop there too!



The very illegality of prostitution just enables the state and law enforcement to add one more level of exploitation onto the poor and desperate.


Wake the fuck up Face.


PS. In a total side note, you do realize that the evolution of drug dealing and cartels in South/Central America is an absolutely perfect study of supply and demand capitalism absent any and all regulations?
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Old 19th July 2018, 06:52 AM   #434464  /  #93
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I had a great aunt who was a hooker/call girl in Detroit/Grosse Point. She worked until she was 40. By then she had a roster of regular gentlemen callers.


When she retired, she had enough money to move to British Columbia, buy a nice place, and start a small antique shop.


Some of her regulars even came to visit her there, especially after their wives died.


She died in 2012.



She left most of her money to various historical and genealogical foundations. It was because of her I started messing with genealogy. She loved history and even though she was childless she loved genealogy.


Nope, no disrespect here for sex workers.



Thanks for sharing this.

One reason it stings when I hear someone being disrespectful to whoring in general, is that whores and 'their kind' are our parents, siblings, children and neighbours and there is a very good chance that we would never know.

I appreciate that you do manage to maintain a respect for sex workers AND their customers. I just can't yet. Something in my thinking on the matter prevents it (which seems a bit unfair to me...)

I think it's because I don't like that Majiffy feels exploited by their boss, and he isn't even WHORING! Exploitation seems to me something which is not dependent on exposed genitals.

For that matter, I can imagine it being better to be an unwilling prostitute in, say, Canada over being in a different situation in another country. Venezuela sounds pretty rough right now, for instance...

I think Majiffy hit the nail on the head when he said it was a macho thing ingrained in men that having to pay for sex was a sign of weakness.


I think you should take that out from your 13 year old self and look at it.
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Old 19th July 2018, 07:22 AM   #434470  /  #94
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I think Majiffy hit the nail on the head when he said it was a macho thing ingrained in men that having to pay for sex was a sign of weakness.
I would sure think so. I wouldn't say so, but I'm pretty fucking sure my nose would turn slightly up and my fucking chest might even puff out a bit.

Quote:


I think you should take that out from your 13 year old self and look at it.
Yeah, I'm trying.

I have honestly advocated for respect for whores for some time. I understand some of what they surrender socially, and lament my own shitty, mixed-up feelings about all of it.

A pal of mine used to walk Stampede/Victoria Park, (rough neighbourhood) looking for cash customers.

In the dead of winter.

Mad respect for what she went through. Holy fuck, what a set of experiences...

Anyway, she had a honey, who never had a job that I could discern, and he certainly knew about her work and 'lived off the avails', or whatever they say...mixed feelings about it all for years. Hell, decades now.

Those who pay for sex should be treated like positive, active consumers (whatever else they may be) and I have a tough time ridding myself of a bit of contempt anyway...

I'll keep thinking about this, and it's good to read someone as idealistic as Timewave. It reminds me of just how wrong I have been about some of this.
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Old 19th July 2018, 07:43 AM   #434471  /  #95
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Old 19th July 2018, 02:12 PM   #434475  /  #96
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Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post

Look, you are right about poverty being the motivation in most cases. Desperation. It's the same motivation for a lot of crime, stealing, drug dealing.



The point is: prostitution doesn't HAVE to be a crime along WITH the crime of being poor.
Prostitution shouldn't be a crime. No point of contention here. It's a criminal act in itself to slap criminal records on women who are driven to prostitution for survival. I support the Nordic model which decriminalises selling of sex but not the buying. It seems the only way which actually tries to reduce demand for the sex trade, rather than accepting it as inevitable and the lot in life for a certain group of women.

Quote:
But I certainly don't judge them for it and while I believe that some things desperate people get up to in order to survive SHOULD be illegal, prostitution is NOT one of those things.
I agree. I support the Nordic model which only punishes the men who buy sex, not the women who are compelled in to prostitution through a variety of awful life circumstances.



Quote:
Give the poor the power to exploit themselves FFS. Don't be such an asshat you want to punish them for being desperate, because that is all you are doing. You aren't helping them by arresting them. You aren't helping them by arresting their customers. You are just adding shit to an already overwhelming stuffed shit sandwich...or don't you get that?
And putting women in a situation where many of them will develop PTSD will reduce the shit in that shit sandwich? Subjecting these women to the worst sort of men around will make things better for them? Men who use prostitutes are not guaranteed to be nice upstanding members of the community. They are over represented by rape apologising no ignoring sex offenders.

There's a Martin Luther quote that goes something like, true commpassion isn't just flipping a coin to a begger, it's seeing that the edifice which produces beggers needs restructuring. I see this as very much applying to prostitution. True compassion isn't putting your cock in the mouth of a prostitute. it's seeing that the edifice that compels women to prostitution is restructured.

Quote:
I notice you have engaged Jiffy and TW, but you are avoiding me. Why?
Did you address me directly before now? If so I must have missed it.

Quote:
This isn't a feminist issue. It's not about women vs men. Contributing factors may fall under the headline of feminist issues, but making prostitution legal is not one of them
.

I don't understand. It seems fairly self evident that the global sexual exploitation and abuse of women would be a feminist concern.


Quote:
This is an issue of outdated morality being used to punish people for things that shouldn't be anyone else's business.
It's outdated to believe women aren't meat? Who knew!

Last edited by Facetious; 19th July 2018 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 19th July 2018, 03:03 PM   #434477  /  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
:


1. How many free blow jobs can law enforcement officers get from prostitutes in places where it is illegal?
How many blow jobs do they get in countries where it's illegal to buy sex but not to sell it?

Quote:
2. Why do many prostitutes have arrangements with pimps?


Answer: To protect them from violent and deadbeat johns, since they have no recourse to police or legal protects, and to bail them out of Jail.
That's not right. A prostituted woman is as likely to be attacked by her pimp than by her customer. It seems to me that a prostituted woman is less likely to be raped or beaten if she goes it alone rather than taking up with a pimp.

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/do...10.1086/695670


Quote:
3. What actually happens when prostitutes ARE arrested?



Answer: They are bailed out and pay a fine. And sometimes a lawyer. That's right, the legal system and the state MAKE money from prostitution too.
Yes, this is one of the reasons I support the Nordic model.



Quote:

Read down to the part where the Cook County made $132,000 in fines in one sting operation from arresting guys that thought they were hiring a hooker.
Oh dear how terrible what a shame.


Quote:
You can also read how the stats for "human trafficking" are unreliable. And of course, if law enforcement is PROFITING from something being illegal, they would want to fudge stats to KEEP it illegal.
The organisations that produce these stats acknowledge their limitations. It's difficult to get an exact figure on the scale of an illegal underground activity.

Trafficking is more evident in countries with legal prostitution than where it is illegal. The most reasonable explanation for this is that it's because legalised prostitution increases trafficking.


Quote:
The very illegality of prostitution just enables the state and law enforcement to add one more level of exploitation onto the poor and desperate.
You seem to be stuck in this either or mode. You either support the full decriminalisation of prostitution. Or you support the full criminalisation of it. There is another option which doesn't let the state persecute prostituted women and goes some way to redress the power imbalance that exists in the prostituted woman/customer dynamic.

Quote:
Wake the fuck up Face.
Nice.

Last edited by Facetious; 19th July 2018 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 19th July 2018, 04:34 PM   #434481  /  #98
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
Oh right, it was Facetious who is the idealistic child, not Timewave.

My mistake, but the point stands.

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Reminder that this is a C-man that and it and he should be ignored
You are such a class act! I'm glad the smart people don't pay much attention to you.

Shouldn't you be logged in as Jerome or Adenosine right now?

As to Facetious, my guess is that their life is too good, which makes this kind of choice hard to imagine

She talks about a shit sandwich, but has never had to decide which she would rather eat - a shit sandwich or a hot load of stranger-sperm...

Some people choose one, some the other. Some are never put into a position where they have to consider such a difficult choice.

And some folks who never had that kind of choice to make, prostitute themselves anyway.
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Old 19th July 2018, 04:51 PM   #434482  /  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
:


1. How many free blow jobs can law enforcement officers get from prostitutes in places where it is illegal?
How many blow jobs do they get in countries where it's illegal to buy sex but not to sell it?

Quote:
2. Why do many prostitutes have arrangements with pimps?


Answer: To protect them from violent and deadbeat johns, since they have no recourse to police or legal protects, and to bail them out of Jail.
That's not right. A prostituted woman is as likely to be attacked by her pimp than by her customer. It seems to me that a prostituted woman is less likely to be raped or beaten if she goes it alone rather than taking up with a pimp.

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/do...10.1086/695670


Quote:
3. What actually happens when prostitutes ARE arrested?



Answer: They are bailed out and pay a fine. And sometimes a lawyer. That's right, the legal system and the state MAKE money from prostitution too.
Yes, this is one of the reasons I support the Nordic model.



Quote:

Read down to the part where the Cook County made $132,000 in fines in one sting operation from arresting guys that thought they were hiring a hooker.
Oh dear how terrible what a shame.


Quote:
You can also read how the stats for "human trafficking" are unreliable. And of course, if law enforcement is PROFITING from something being illegal, they would want to fudge stats to KEEP it illegal.
The organisations that produce these stats acknowledge their limitations. It's difficult to get an exact figure on the scale of an illegal underground activity.

Trafficking is more evident in countries with legal prostitution than where it is illegal. The most reasonable explanation for this is that it's because legalised prostitution increases trafficking.


Quote:
The very illegality of prostitution just enables the state and law enforcement to add one more level of exploitation onto the poor and desperate.
You seem to be stuck in this either or mode. You either support the full decriminalisation of prostitution. Or you support the full criminalisation of it. There is another option which doesn't let the state persecute prostituted women and goes some way to redress the power imbalance that exists in the prostituted woman/customer dynamic.

Quote:
Wake the fuck up Face.
Nice.

Sorry, I thought you were arguing against legalizing prostitution.

I support complete legalization, organization, and unionization. I think we could break the pimp model with hired bodyguards/drivers, which some escort services are already doing, even though it's illegal...

And I don't consider prostitution a woman only issue, probably because I have known male prostitutes (gay). They had a REALLY hard time : )

But I do NOT consider being a prostitute or buying their services in any way to be unethical or immoral. I certainly see no reason to punish buyers of a service.


Canada takes a look at the problems with the "Nordic" model. In which btw making buying the services of prostitute has only been illegal since 1999...

http://www.aidslaw.ca/site/sex-work-...ticle/?lang=en


In short, feminists pushed for a law to punish men, they got it, and it made things worse for prostitutes, because no one bothered to ask them first.



You haven't convinced me that the supposed increase in "trafficking" isn't from business people moving from an area where something is illegal to an area where it is legal. That would just be common sense that would happen.



BTW, Is it trafficking when a coyote brings people that pay him over the border even though he has no intention of getting them a job or exploiting their labor in any way?
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Old 19th July 2018, 06:07 PM   #434487  /  #100
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
If either side of the exchange is unlawful, it would seem to me to make things operate underground.

The reason illegal immigrants have so much of my sympathy is because of their inability to interact with the justice system. At least interact with it without fear.

If we want to treat both parties respectably, we have to (I think) find a way to convince folks to invest in a bordello. At the moment, I wouldn't do it because of how sure I am that I would be investing in a misery-generating business. Others have their own reasons, but until most people can see it as a 'clean investment', we are missing something important.
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