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Old 25th July 2019, 12:04 AM   #449630  /  #1
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BC Human Rights vs JY

This is a decision which, I suspect, will be awkward no matter how it comes out.

The funniest part might be the CBC coverage of it.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...-brazilian-wax

This quote is NOT regarding the BC case
Quote:
In May, it was reported that a transgender woman was seeking $50,000 after being denied service at Mad Wax, a body hair removal business in Windsor, Ont. Jason Carruthers, Mad Wax’s president, told the Windsor Star at the time that the only employee working that day was a Muslim woman who refrains from physical contact with men outside family. And the only staff member who did male waxing was on sick leave.
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:27 AM   #449631  /  #2
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I've been following this. I thought CBC hadn't been covering it, or is that the funny bit?
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:33 AM   #449632  /  #3
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I've been following this. I thought CBC hadn't been covering it, or is that the funny bit?
It IS pretty funny, isn't it?

I mean, it is a very popular subject in the stories now (from tumblr to mainstream media) so I don't know why they aren't all over it.

Though I could guess. It could be their acute awareness that no matter how they tell this story, someone with a victim status will excoriate them for not being sensitive to one group or the other.

The real story here should be the way the government is handling it. In Canada, the government is the BC HRC, AND the CBC, the only thing that could make it funnier would be if JY also worked for the government in some capacity.
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Old 25th July 2019, 04:31 PM   #449647  /  #4
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I was thinking about this, and the CBC can't report on this without being open to accusations of targeting one of the 'identity groups', so they CAN'T.

Which is hilarious, when you consider that they are supposed to be an unbiased (government propaganda branch)
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Old 25th July 2019, 09:19 PM   #449648  /  #5
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I was thinking about this, and the CBC can't report on this without being open to accusations of targeting one of the 'identity groups', so they CAN'T.

Which is hilarious, when you consider that they are supposed to be an unbiased (government propaganda branch)
I suspect there's so much confusing, often unsourced, gossip and right wing blogging about this person that it's difficult for CBC or anyone to comment yet.

This person, Jessica Yaniv, is very weird and posts weird shit. This blogger at least has direct quotes and conversation snippets:

https://mirandayardley.com/en/jonath...is-a-predator

It sounds like they just like targeting immigrants and are weirdly obsessed with tampons.
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Old 25th July 2019, 10:05 PM   #449649  /  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
I was thinking about this, and the CBC can't report on this without being open to accusations of targeting one of the 'identity groups', so they CAN'T.

Which is hilarious, when you consider that they are supposed to be an unbiased (government propaganda branch)
I suspect there's so much confusing, often unsourced, gossip and right wing blogging about this person that it's difficult for CBC or anyone to comment yet.

This person, Jessica Yaniv, is very weird and posts weird shit. This blogger at least has direct quotes and conversation snippets:

https://mirandayardley.com/en/jonath...is-a-predator

It sounds like they just like targeting immigrants and are weirdly obsessed with tampons.
Maybe someone will dig up the 'topless trans-kids' swimming pool bookings he tried to get through the City. I understand his effort to ban adults was cause for concern among some of the right-wing parents.

But yeah, this is who, and how, the Human Rights Commission protects.

So borealis, will you take a side? Should the immigrant women have to shave her balls?

Or should HE stop bullying vulnerable people with his government-funded legal attacks?

JY should be held up as the poster-lady for Canadian Human Rights progress. (I'm NOT a fan of the Human Rights Commision)

Twitter banned Lindsay Sheppard (?sp) for a spat with JY. Took a side CLEARLY.

Would you stand behind LS, or JY in that case? I'm genuinely curious about your clear position on it.

https://www.macleans.ca/lindsay-shep...lfrid-laurier
Quote:
They’re gathering here because of Shepherd: the teaching assistant who showed her class of first-year undergrads a short video clip featuring controversial University of Toronto professor Jordan Peterson as part of a debate from a public broadcasting show; the self-described leftist who opened up a discussion on the use of gendered pronouns, without picking sides herself; the grad student who through tears stood up to her supervisor and two other Laurier staff members who reprimanded her for potentially breaking the law by showing those video clips neutrally and without offering context; the free speech advocate who leaked the audio of that meeting to the press, opening up the university to criticism of stifling free speech on campus; the Laurier newcomer who got an apology from both a professor and the university president; and, now, the social media star with more than 30,000 Twitter followers.
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Old 26th July 2019, 12:26 AM   #449652  /  #7
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Quote:
Would you stand behind LS, or JY in that case? I'm genuinely curious about your clear position on it.
Over a Twitter ban?

Twitter is a corporation. Obviously twitter took the side of the person who makes them the most money. Why do I need a clearer position than thinking that's a common if contemptible situation?

Twitter has even stated they would never ban or delete Trump's tweets no matter how much he violated their standards.

You realise it's possible to hold neutral or nuanced positions, to think both sides of an argument has flaws, and even in time reach a point where the good points on each side are the ones followed or accepted?

I feel bad for Lindsay Shepherd. She was young and not ready for a shitstorm.

Yaniv appears to be an ass. But maybe her assininity will help clarify some cloudy issues.
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Old 26th July 2019, 12:56 AM   #449653  /  #8
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Originally Posted by borealis View Post
Quote:
Would you stand behind LS, or JY in that case? I'm genuinely curious about your clear position on it.
Over a Twitter ban?

Twitter is a corporation. Obviously twitter took the side of the person who makes them the most money. Why do I need a clearer position than thinking that's a common if contemptible situation?

Twitter has even stated they would never ban or delete Trump's tweets no matter how much he violated their standards.

You realise it's possible to hold neutral or nuanced positions, to think both sides of an argument has flaws, and even in time reach a point where the good points on each side are the ones followed or accepted?

I feel bad for Lindsay Shepherd. She was young and not ready for a shitstorm.

Yaniv appears to be an ass. But maybe her assininity will help clarify some cloudy issues.
So Lindsay shouldn't have gotten a shitstorm. I hope she gets rich, and bullies get outed due to her inappropriate recording.

As to Yaniv, if you didn't find yourself in the laughable position of granting him female privilege, you would be a lot more objective about how to treat him.

It seems pretty clear cut that this jackass uses his knowledge of local law and customs to bully women into exposing themselves to legal attack.

Should they be allowed to refuse to handle a man who thinks he is a woman?

I guess it comes down to a simpler question. Do you think people get to class others as men and women, or do you think that classification should be made for them?
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Old 26th July 2019, 05:19 AM   #449661  /  #9
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This person, Jessica Yaniv, ...
Correction, idiot. This person is (calls himself) "Jonathan (Jessica) Yaniv" on Twitter.

He's a man, a very deranged one.

You people who refuse direct reality over what?, your feelings? meh
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Old 26th July 2019, 06:34 AM   #449662  /  #10
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Originally Posted by MondoVman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
This person, Jessica Yaniv, ...
Correction, idiot. This person is (calls himself) "Jonathan (Jessica) Yaniv" on Twitter.

He's a man, a very deranged one.

You people who refuse direct reality over what?, your feelings? meh
I acknowledge reality well enough, I think. Yaniv, whether Jessica or Jonathan, is a man.

He is so over-the-top terrible, that I thought it might be a ploy to show how vulgar and stupid the Human Rights Commissions are, when 'played' deliberately.

Then I realized no such ploy is needed. People with their wonderous variety are every bit as nuts as the situation calls for.

The applications for the pool parties really creeped me out though...there is a clear effort to transmit (hehe) some of this new 'education' to kids, and guess who would be a priority hire?

Well, if you are a cis-white-guy, and Yaniv is fuckity and passable (in a lawful sense) then I think we can guess how things in Canada would go, MondoVman.

Wanna come run?
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Old 26th July 2019, 01:23 PM   #449664  /  #11
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Quote:
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I've been following this. I thought CBC hadn't been covering it, or is that the funny bit?
It IS pretty funny, isn't it?

I mean, it is a very popular subject in the stories now (from tumblr to mainstream media) so I don't know why they aren't all over it.

Though I could guess. It could be their acute awareness that no matter how they tell this story, someone with a victim status will excoriate them for not being sensitive to one group or the other.

The real story here should be the way the government is handling it. In Canada, the government is the BC HRC, AND the CBC, the only thing that could make it funnier would be if JY also worked for the government in some capacity.

You can't expect them to admit women have been right all along. They've spent the last few years denying that self-ID is a predators charter. When you remove safeguarding, when you tell women they don't have the right to say no, that having boundaries is an act of bigoty - then you enable predatory men.



Tran's Rights Activists and their allies have succeeded where MRAs failed, they've made it acceptable to actively silence women, and to dismiss women's concerns as fearmongering and hysteria.


Now Yaniv has come along and so called progressives are remaining uncharacteristically silent. Why? If Transwomen are women, then providing a service for women but excluding transwomen must be an act of discrimination. The state should therefore compel all women who provide intimate grooming services to provide the same to those who have male genitalia if the owner of male genitalia identifies as a woman. But we know why they're silent, because nobody really believes Yaniv is a woman, and everyone understands women should have the right to refuse to touch male genitalia if they don't want to. But they don't want to say this publicly because it would make all the wheels of the clowncar that is gender ideology fall off.

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Old 26th July 2019, 04:19 PM   #449665  /  #12
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Tran's Rights Activists and their allies have succeeded where MRAs failed, they've made it acceptable to actively silence women, and to dismiss women's concerns as fearmongering and hysteria.
You have a corrupt view of MRA's. Probably based on some of their worst spokespeople.

If the phrase 'human rights' hadn't been stolen by bigots, I would say that one should fight for human rights over mens (or womens rights.

Mens rights issues are often brushed aside by folks who callously lump all mens concerns under the worst MRA's they have encountered.

Think more. I know you can.
Quote:
Now Yaniv has come along and so called progressives are remaining uncharacteristically silent. Why? If Transwomen are women, then providing a service for women but excluding transwomen must be an act of discrimination. The state should therefore compel all women who provide intimate grooming services to provide the same to those who have male genitalia if the owner of male genitalia identifies as a woman. But we know why they're silent, because nobody really believes Yaniv is a woman, and everyone understands women should have the right to refuse to touch male genitalia if they don't want to. But they don't want to say this publicly because it would make all the wheels of the clowncar that is gender ideology fall off.
It's enshrined in law in Canada now, so I doubt there is any reasonable way out. I am interested in this decision, because it fucks something up. I hope it's the stupid gender ideology hogwash. I don't mind being accepting of anyone, but as soon as someone starts demanding acceptance, they can fuck off.

Come to think of it, I feel the same way about basic human respect.
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Old 26th July 2019, 05:38 PM   #449666  /  #13
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It's enshrined in law in Canada now
What does "it" refer to in this sentence?
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Old 26th July 2019, 05:40 PM   #449667  /  #14
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Quote:
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It's enshrined in law in Canada now
What does "it" refer to in this sentence?
Including 'gender identity' in the Human Rights code, means it has (sort of) legal teeth, which JY is using in this abusive set of events.
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Old 26th July 2019, 05:48 PM   #449668  /  #15
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You're talking about C-16 (2016)?

Yes, you're no longer allowed to deny employment, housing, services, etc., to someone merely because there's something about their gender expression that strikes you as weird.

I don't believe there's anything in that bill that comes down on one side or the other with respect to the question of how gender should be assigned/defined.


eta: So it's not clear (to me) that it forces the HRC to support JY in this case. Of course, there's always the possibility that they may "interpret" it in that way....
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Old 26th July 2019, 05:51 PM   #449669  /  #16
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You're talking about C-16 (2016)?

Yes, you're no longer allowed to deny employment, housing, services, etc., to someone merely because there's something about their gender expression that strikes you as weird.

I don't believe there's anything in that bill that comes down on one side or the other with respect to the question of how gender should be assigned/defined.
The law which allows JY to claim discrimination because immigrant women with entry-level jobs won't shave his balls.

While it may be C-16 or some different part, whatever it is allows him to insist that these poor women are BIGOTS for refusing to shave his genitals.

It does come down on one side - the complaintants they accept. (Canadian Human Rights are doled out in a rather arbitrary way)
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Old 26th July 2019, 05:57 PM   #449670  /  #17
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Old 26th July 2019, 06:03 PM   #449671  /  #18
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The law which allows JY to claim discrimination because immigrant women with entry-level jobs won't shave his balls.

While it may be C-16 or some different part, whatever it is allows him to insist that these poor women are BIGOTS for refusing to shave his genitals.
You can "claim" or "insist" on nearly anything you want. That's just basic freedom of speech.
Quote:
It does come down on one side - the complaintants they accept. (Canadian Human Rights are doled out in a rather arbitrary way)
Are you saying that this unspecified law will force the HRC to agree with JY?

Can you link to this law?
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Old 26th July 2019, 06:05 PM   #449672  /  #19
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Quote:
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The law which allows JY to claim discrimination because immigrant women with entry-level jobs won't shave his balls.

While it may be C-16 or some different part, whatever it is allows him to insist that these poor women are BIGOTS for refusing to shave his genitals.
You can "claim" or "insist" on nearly anything you want. That's just basic freedom of speech.
Quote:
It does come down on one side - the complaintants they accept. (Canadian Human Rights are doled out in a rather arbitrary way)
Are you saying that this unspecified law will force the HRC to agree with JY?

Can you link to this law?
What are you having trouble understanding? An unaccountable arm of the government has taken his complaint to a hearing, and will rule on it.

His complaint? Women who don't want to handle penises don't want to handle his penis.

Because he claims his penis is female, he has a case. Are you denying that it is a law? Or trying to make some other point?
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Old 26th July 2019, 06:41 PM   #449673  /  #20
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What are you having trouble understanding?
I'm having trouble understanding what you thought you were saying when you said "It's enshrined in law in Canada now".

You haven't made it clear at all.
Quote:
Are you denying that it is a law?
Denying that what is a law?

What do you think the law says?
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Old 26th July 2019, 06:45 PM   #449674  /  #21
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What are you having trouble understanding?
I'm having trouble understanding what you thought you were saying when you said "It's enshrined in law in Canada now".

You haven't made it clear at all.
Quote:
Are you denying that it is a law?
Denying that what is a law?

What do you think the law says?
Something stupid about discrimination against people who think they are the sex that they are not.

I haven't got the text of it (you could maybe look it up if you are interested) but am more interested in the effects.

Especially this one, which makes it ok for a big, nasty man to bully women who decline to shave his balls.

Why not look up which law it is, if you are interested? I'm sure your internet is at least as good as mine?

Or are you just trying to have a 'gotcha' moment, while ignoring the big bully trying to get unwilling women to shave his balls?
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Old 26th July 2019, 07:52 PM   #449675  /  #22
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What do you think the law says?
Something stupid about discrimination against people who think they are the sex that they are not.
Disappointing; I hoped you'd have some specifics.
Quote:
...but am more interested in the effects.

Especially this one, which makes it ok for a big, nasty man to bully women who decline to shave his balls.
Human systems are complicated. It's often the case that when you try to correct one problem, you create others.

I think we are agreed that, in this case, it would be better if the HRC rules against JY than if they rule for him/her/whatever. Then, having set that precedent, hopefully the instances of this type of nonsense will become infrequent.

If we happen to be talking about C-16 (2016) -- which is the law that I'm aware of, that touches on trans issues and has kicked up a lot of controversy -- then I'd still say it's a good thing overall in spite of possibly having a connection to cases like this. "Bloody well about time" was my reaction when I read it: OF COURSE people shouldn't be denied housing or employment or ... just because other people are weirded out by their androgyny or whatever.
Quote:
Why not look up which law it is, if you are interested? I'm sure your internet is at least as good as mine?
Well, my best guess is that you're talking about C-16 (2016), which I have already looked up. But it doesn't entirely match your description, so I was wondering whether there was another one you meant.
Quote:
Or are you just trying to have a 'gotcha' moment, while ignoring the big bully trying to get unwilling women to shave his balls?
I wasn't aware that it was necessary to comment on one thing in order to be allowed to comment on a different thing. But if you insist, then I'll agree with you that JY is a bully, and I hope his/her/??? case doesn't prevail.

So now that I've satisfied this arbitrary requirement: I don't believe that C-16 as written forces the HRC to agree with JY.

If having gender expression/identification as a protected category under the Human Rights code forces a woman to shave JY's balls, then by the same reasoning, the fact that sex is a protected category (which it has been for a long time) would also force a woman to shave the balls of any guy who asks for it.

So I don't agree that there's a fundamental problem with the law in question (if we're talking about the same one).

Whether the HRC is going to be a bunch of idiots, though, is a different question.
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Old 26th July 2019, 08:14 PM   #449676  /  #23
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Human systems are complicated. It's often the case that when you try to correct one problem, you create others.

I think we are agreed that, in this case, it would be better if the HRC rules against JY than if they rule for him/her/whatever. Then, having set that precedent, hopefully the instances of this type of nonsense will become infrequent.
No, we are not.

I think we are all agreed that the Human Rights Commission in Canada is a bad idea, with inadequate accountability and too much power left open to abuse.

Wait - scratch that.

I disagree, BroD. I don't think the HRC is a good idea to start with.

Quote:
OF COURSE people shouldn't be denied housing or employment or ... just because other people are weirded out by their androgyny or whatever.
As it is, you must have a 'protected status' to access this special legal system.

That isn't fair, no matter how you look at it. It is maybe advocacy, maybe good or maybe bad, but it isn't 'fair' in the way I understand fair.

Quote:
Quote:
Why not look up which law it is, if you are interested? I'm sure your internet is at least as good as mine?
Well, my best guess is that you're talking about C-16 (2016), which I have already looked up. But it doesn't entirely match your description, so I was wondering whether there was another one you meant.
Reject my description, or understanding of it. I simply thought it looked like a shit idea, which would add to the powers of the HRC for a statistically VERY tiny group, but in a way which would have HUGE and sudden effects on our society.

A society, by the way, that is pretty fucking good.

I know one guy, for example, who uses an avatar of a tranny which includes a religious disrespect, vulgarity, on old white guy and freedom of speech. Possibly the tri-fecta of the 'okay to hate' group, and this guy is STILL accepted by those around him. That is the society - the one I love - that is being accused of having been terrible to this group.

I don't mind a bit of hating though. I think it is inclusive of me to be willing to suffer a bit of hate in exchange for honesty. If someone, for example, advertised that they don't serve The Jews, I would avoid them. My heritage would forbid my participation, but I wouldn't suggest they weren't allowed to do business.
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I wasn't aware that it was necessary to comment on one thing in order to be allowed to comment on a different thing. But if you insist, then I'll agree with you that JY is a bully, and I hope his/her/??? case doesn't prevail.
One of the most bothersome aspects of this is the lack of coverage. I think they avoid publicizing this kind of story so that they don't paint a bad picture of the trans community.

If they applied that to all groups, I guess it would be ok, but they only seem to respect certain groups that way.

The story isn't that unexpected (people are varied, some are nuts) but the way these things are and aren't covered in Canada makes me worried that the CBC (government funded) might be trying to manipulate public opinion by re-arranging reality.

But a government funded news agency wouldn't do that, right?
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So now that I've satisfied this arbitrary requirement: I don't believe that C-16 as written forces the HRC to agree with JY.
No, but it has allowed him to use the HRC to bully several victims, at least one of whom closed her business down.

I can't blame her, but the HRC just closed down someone's hopes and dreams.

THAT story should be told more often, and more loudly.

Quote:

If having gender expression/identification as a protected category under the Human Rights code forces a woman to shave JY's balls, then by the same reasoning, the fact that sex is a protected category (which it has been for a long time) would also force a woman to shave the balls of any guy who asks for it.

So I don't agree that there's a fundamental problem with the law in question (if we're talking about the same one).

Whether the HRC is going to be a bunch of idiots, though, is a different question.
It doesn't matter if they are this time, being people, they will be sometimes.

With the power they have, that they shouldn't, they will absolutely damage things. I'm not convinced they have done any good, but my contact with them has been only in a few professional contexts and I haven't really studied their history.

If you give an idiot a weapon (like a team of government funded lawyers with the ability to impose penalties) it is just a matter of time before someone gets hurt.
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Old 26th July 2019, 09:48 PM   #449684  /  #24
borealis
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Canada
You know, CTV, Global, and many other media sources aren't covering Yaniv either.

If I were a journalist for a mainstream news outlet, I'd be waiting to see what actually happens before going public.

I'll be surprised if the ruling is in Yaniv's favour. S/he's a bully and a bigot and generally pretty unsavoury person.

I also don't think there is any merit in forcing anyone to handle anyone else's genitalia, for any reason, regardless of the services they offer.
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Old 26th July 2019, 09:56 PM   #449685  /  #25
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
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Originally Posted by borealis View Post
You know, CTV, Global, and many other media sources aren't covering Yaniv either.

If I were a journalist for a mainstream news outlet, I'd be waiting to see what actually happens before going public.

I'll be surprised if the ruling is in Yaniv's favour. S/he's a bully and a bigot and generally pretty unsavoury person.

I also don't think there is any merit in forcing anyone to handle anyone else's genitalia, for any reason, regardless of the services they offer.
If I were a journalist, I would relentlessly point out the HRC's role in this bullying (they choose which cases to take) and it doesn't matter what the decision is, as far as that story goes.

That story won't be told though. Critical pieces about that particular government agency don't seem popular.

Probably doesn't sell much ad space.
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