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Old 5th June 2020, 11:04 PM   #460030  /  #6026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantisdreamz View Post
Makes it seem as though you want to question everyone for their stance, even though their stance is the correct one. But want to question them so that you can get a 1 up on them
One upmanship.
It's about winning, not being right.
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Old 5th June 2020, 11:54 PM   #460031  /  #6027
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Originally Posted by Timewave View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantisdreamz View Post
Makes it seem as though you want to question everyone for their stance, even though their stance is the correct one. But want to question them so that you can get a 1 up on them
One upmanship.
It's about winning, not being right.
That might make sense, if I changed my positions to match your fantasy.

It's about not folding up because my thoughts are unpopular. Look online for discussion, and you'll find righties inviting conversation from lefties (look at Andrew Klavan for example) and lefties finding any excuse at all to exclude rightie voices.

It's not the appeal of the right that has pushed me away from the left over the years. It's the shit quality of lefty arguments, and the disgusting attacks. Disgusting and predictable.

Of course, you should never talk with anyone who has opinions different than you. MUCH safer to your social life if you just pretend anyone who disagrees is a racist, or sexist, or otherwise evil, so that you don't have to face awkward facts.

like how Mr. Dorn's life doesn't seem to matter much to the BLM-cheering 'journalists' in the US right now.

TLR - Timewave
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Old 6th June 2020, 01:49 AM   #460032  /  #6028
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Has the US police force always been a paramilitary organisation?


ETA. I've been reading about the 8cantwait campaign. De-escalation first, reporting all use of force, this isn't normal practice for US police?

Last edited by Facetious; 6th June 2020 at 01:55 AM.
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Old 6th June 2020, 02:09 AM   #460033  /  #6029
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Reading Cuntposts about lefties and righties is remarkably similar to reading Jeromeposts about the geometry of the earth.
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Old 6th June 2020, 02:50 AM   #460034  /  #6030
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
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Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post
Reading Cuntposts about lefties and righties is remarkably similar to reading Jeromeposts about the geometry of the earth.
Personal attacks are all you have.

It informs me quite a lot about the depth of your position.
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Old 6th June 2020, 03:16 AM   #460035  /  #6031
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It's not that it's all I have. It's all you seem to understand.
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Old 6th June 2020, 04:58 AM   #460036  /  #6032
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It's not that it's all I have. It's all you seem to understand.
I get that you are pissed, and I don't seek it, but it doesn't change my mind.

My guess is that we don't disagree on as much as you think we do.

It's fun to bash me, but give the unpopular opinion a try yourself, and see how things go. I'll be glad to hear how well you do, and learn from your successes.
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Old 6th June 2020, 09:00 AM   #460038  /  #6033
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Sealioning is a type of trolling or harassment which consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity. It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate". The troll feigns ignorance and politeness, so that if the target is provoked into making an angry response, the troll can then act as the aggrieved party.
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Old 6th June 2020, 09:19 AM   #460039  /  #6034
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantisdreamz View Post
Makes it seem as though you want to question everyone for their stance, even though their stance is the correct one. But want to question them so that you can get a 1 up on them
Do you ever argue 'with the grain'?

I question people because they state things.

How would you respond if people said you have to lockdown or you are trying to spread disease?

What I did, when that happened, was to lock down exceeding the recommendations of my local government.

How would you respond if you were then told that if you don't protest a killing, you are a racist?

What I did, was see how the media is responsible for a lot of panic, and wondered about the ex-police chief who was killed by looters. He was a black guy by the way, but his life won't matter.

How would you respond if your Mom couldn't attend her brothers funeral, because of a media panic (or disease) and a bunch of officials ignored those rules to attend a service for a murder victim (who tested positive for COVID)?

Conversations are how we make sense of the world. If you aren't allowed to talk about certain subjects, then all you have is your own thoughts. I assure you, you aren't as smart as you+your other people.

Are you allowed to disagree with your friends? Can you say (if it is true) that you have more sympathy for David Dorn than for George Flynn? Or would you be vilified for expressing sympathy for the wrong victim?
I get it. You tend to get yourself in a lot of trouble though. I think you are a good person. Just I thought that maybe, you like to argue against the grain, for the sake of it, sometimes.


I have sympathy for both.


I mean, if I didn't lock down as much as I could, than I am part of the problem. And if people said that you have to lockdown, or you're likely to spread a virus (potentially, if you have it without knowing), than I'd probably say, ya you're right. It didn't occur to me to argue against that kind of thing, because taking preventative measures is what makes sense.


If someone called me racist for not protesting (audibly), then I wouldn't care about the person that said that, because they'd be wrong. And not worth my time to try to argue over it.


Why did your thoughts go right upon the cop that was killed by looters? The thing is, it's a totally separate thing. Obviously it's not right that that happened to him. But I see them as 2 entirely separate events. Bringing it up in relation, doesn't make the killing of George Floyd any better. In this circumstance people are livid because this particular thing has happened one too many times. This was the last straw... actually, the final straw was ages ago. But the manner in which this was done, just makes it so ridiculously unbelievable that people are fucking PISSED.


In this particular case, everyone has a right to be disgusted, and react to it. I don't know if it was an evil act, because I doubt that it was done with the actual intention to kill this man. But it highlights, just how much of a wall, some police officers, or people in authority have up with regards to people of another race. Like they have a barrier up that exists due to fear; fear being caused by a deep seated racial bias. It has to stop, period.

So, I'm not sure what you were arguing about in particular. But when everyone is mad, and there's a logical progression as to why people are mad.. someone coming in and questioning and trying to make a debate out of it, really is not appreciated.
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Old 6th June 2020, 10:29 AM   #460043  /  #6035
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Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post
Reading Cuntposts about lefties and righties is remarkably similar to reading Jeromeposts about the geometry of the earth.
if only there was a simple solution to this conundrum
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Old 6th June 2020, 10:34 AM   #460044  /  #6036
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Old 6th June 2020, 11:25 AM   #460045  /  #6037
Brother Daniel
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: a peninsula in the North Atlantic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantisdreamz View Post
someone coming in and questioning and trying to make a debate out of it, really is not appreciated.
It would be fine if it were done honestly, rather than as a game.
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Old 6th June 2020, 02:30 PM   #460047  /  #6038
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: it's grim up north
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post
Reading Cuntposts about lefties and righties is remarkably similar to reading Jeromeposts about the geometry of the earth.

How so? I've read similar but from credible pyshcologists and political scientists, Matthew Goodwin, David Goodhart and Johnathon Haidt spring to mind.
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Old 6th June 2020, 02:41 PM   #460048  /  #6039
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Originally Posted by Mantisdreamz View Post


Why did your thoughts go right upon the cop that was killed by looters? The thing is, it's a totally separate thing. Obviously it's not right that that happened to him. But I see them as 2 entirely separate events. Bringing it up in relation, doesn't make the killing of George Floyd any better. In this circumstance people are livid because this particular thing has happened one too many times. This was the last straw... actually, the final straw was ages ago. But the manner in which this was done, just makes it so ridiculously unbelievable that people are fucking PISSED.

Yes this. The more I read about this the more I'm astonished at how normalised police violence is. It's awful that looters murdered David Dorn, a tragedy. But it's not the same as a policing culture which permits and supports the use of extreme violence against unarmed people.
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Old 6th June 2020, 04:39 PM   #460049  /  #6040
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Originally Posted by Imp View Post
Sealioning is a type of trolling or harassment which consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity. It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate". The troll feigns ignorance and politeness, so that if the target is provoked into making an angry response, the troll can then act as the aggrieved party.
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Old 6th June 2020, 04:39 PM   #460050  /  #6041
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
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Originally Posted by Mantisdreamz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantisdreamz View Post
Makes it seem as though you want to question everyone for their stance, even though their stance is the correct one. But want to question them so that you can get a 1 up on them
Do you ever argue 'with the grain'?

I question people because they state things.

How would you respond if people said you have to lockdown or you are trying to spread disease?

What I did, when that happened, was to lock down exceeding the recommendations of my local government.

How would you respond if you were then told that if you don't protest a killing, you are a racist?

What I did, was see how the media is responsible for a lot of panic, and wondered about the ex-police chief who was killed by looters. He was a black guy by the way, but his life won't matter.

How would you respond if your Mom couldn't attend her brothers funeral, because of a media panic (or disease) and a bunch of officials ignored those rules to attend a service for a murder victim (who tested positive for COVID)?

Conversations are how we make sense of the world. If you aren't allowed to talk about certain subjects, then all you have is your own thoughts. I assure you, you aren't as smart as you+your other people.

Are you allowed to disagree with your friends? Can you say (if it is true) that you have more sympathy for David Dorn than for George Flynn? Or would you be vilified for expressing sympathy for the wrong victim?
I get it. You tend to get yourself in a lot of trouble though. I think you are a good person. Just I thought that maybe, you like to argue against the grain, for the sake of it, sometimes.


I have sympathy for both.


I mean, if I didn't lock down as much as I could, than I am part of the problem. And if people said that you have to lockdown, or you're likely to spread a virus (potentially, if you have it without knowing), than I'd probably say, ya you're right. It didn't occur to me to argue against that kind of thing, because taking preventative measures is what makes sense.


If someone called me racist for not protesting (audibly), then I wouldn't care about the person that said that, because they'd be wrong. And not worth my time to try to argue over it.


Why did your thoughts go right upon the cop that was killed by looters? The thing is, it's a totally separate thing. Obviously it's not right that that happened to him. But I see them as 2 entirely separate events. Bringing it up in relation, doesn't make the killing of George Floyd any better. In this circumstance people are livid because this particular thing has happened one too many times. This was the last straw... actually, the final straw was ages ago. But the manner in which this was done, just makes it so ridiculously unbelievable that people are fucking PISSED.


In this particular case, everyone has a right to be disgusted, and react to it. I don't know if it was an evil act, because I doubt that it was done with the actual intention to kill this man. But it highlights, just how much of a wall, some police officers, or people in authority have up with regards to people of another race. Like they have a barrier up that exists due to fear; fear being caused by a deep seated racial bias. It has to stop, period.

So, I'm not sure what you were arguing about in particular. But when everyone is mad, and there's a logical progression as to why people are mad.. someone coming in and questioning and trying to make a debate out of it, really is not appreciated.
The media insists that America is racist, and pushes a vile notion that cops killing unarmed black men is some kind of genocide.

If you agree, you get a pass and aren't racist. You may be asked to kneel, or signal your agreement on social media, but you might not be racist.

If, alternately, you ask how many unarmed black men were killed this year by police, then compare that number to the number of victims of rioting and looting, you might start looking racist (to the media)

I don't know racists, but news orgs insist to me that everyone IS a racist, and moreover, that it is the most important thing about them.

I don't know if the cop who killed Floyd is racist, but it isn't as important as his being a murderer.

If you want to know the RIGHT way to deal with racism, contrast Daryl Davis with CNN, and see which you think makes more sense as a loving human.
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Old 6th June 2020, 05:02 PM   #460052  /  #6042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantisdreamz View Post
someone coming in and questioning and trying to make a debate out of it, really is not appreciated.
It would be fine if it were done honestly, rather than as a game.
It's honest, Bro D.

I don't know why you are pissed, but I would rather it were otherwise.

I suspect I don't agree with something sacred to you. I get it, but without talking about it, all we'll have is sniping at each other amusingly.

You dick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post

Yes this. The more I read about this the more I'm astonished at how normalised police violence is. It's awful that looters murdered David Dorn, a tragedy. But it's not the same as a policing culture which permits and supports the use of extreme violence against unarmed people.
Thanks, Facetious. I've listened to contrasting views on a number of things, and there is a high likelihood that if you approach a feminist about comments by Erin Pizzey, they'll insist she is 'no true feminist' etc. It always made it sound, to me, like attacking her person was the only ammo they had. Makes it tougher to evaluate her ideas when there isn't more lively participation.

But about the cops...

You sound like someone who doesn't love any cops. I wish you would do the job of police, with a big gun to be responsible for, when considering matters around use of force.

Floyd looked murdered to me. The guy leaning on his neck looked very casual about it. It didn't look like policing, which will probably show in how the justice system treats him.

Anyway, which culture supports it? If you are talking about the US, go ahead and tell me the numbers for 'unarmed and killed by police'.

Then we'll sort them by race, and see how much of a 'culture which permits and supports' such a thing targets races...

How would you feel if you were accused of 'permitting and supporting the use of extreme violence against unarmed people'?
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Old 6th June 2020, 05:12 PM   #460053  /  #6043
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp View Post
Sealioning is a type of trolling or harassment which consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity. It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate". The troll feigns ignorance and politeness, so that if the target is provoked into making an angry response, the troll can then act as the aggrieved party.
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Old 6th June 2020, 05:30 PM   #460054  /  #6044
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
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sup
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Old 6th June 2020, 07:06 PM   #460055  /  #6045
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Old 6th June 2020, 09:19 PM   #460056  /  #6046
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Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post
Reading Cuntposts about lefties and righties is remarkably similar to reading Jeromeposts about the geometry of the earth.
How so?
It's the "personal testimony" aspect of it. Consider this:
Quote:
It's not the appeal of the right that has pushed me away from the left over the years. It's the shit quality of lefty arguments, and the disgusting attacks. Disgusting and predictable.
Here we have a narrative in which he used to be lefty but has moved away from it because of argument quality. It reminded me of Jerome's claims to have discarded the satanic round-earth propaganda (pushed by the gummits of the world) in favour of da troof of the flat earth, thanks to his unusually keen (soi-disant) ability to think for himself.

It's not like Cunt has ever shown any real ability to assess which arguments are actually of shit quality and which are not. Yes, there are shit arguments on the left, as there are shit arguments on all sides of every political issue. But here we have the innuendo that shit arguments (and "disgusting attacks") are more of a feature of the left than of the right. Utterly risible.

If Cunt were not such a raging hypocrite, he'd probably notice that his claims (and his innuendo) about the behaviours of left and right are just as vulnerable to demands for quantification as my description of the casual murder of black people by police.

As for "disgusting and predictable", that describes well the tactics Cunt uses in order to try to shame people into continuing to engage with him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious
I've read similar but from credible pyshcologists and political scientists, Matthew Goodwin, David Goodhart and Johnathon Haidt spring to mind.
Interesting. Can you make the specific claims of these writers a bit more precise for me?

I know this is merely anecdotal, and anecdotal evidence is very weak, yadda yadda etc.: But as I browse through large bookstores in order to get a sense of the political zeitgeist, I have frequently run into books from right-leaning politicians/pundits/etc. whose whole point is to portray the left en masse as thoroughly evil spawn of satan (sometimes apparently literally). If it's the left who are so closed-minded, why haven't I run into the same thing in reverse?

When I look for such things, what do I come across? Check out this book here, where a lefty decides to hang around with righties for a year and listen to them to try to understand them better, and ends up liking many of them. If it's the right who are so open-minded, why haven't I run into the same thing in reverse?
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Old 6th June 2020, 10:44 PM   #460058  /  #6047
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Here we have a narrative in which he used to be lefty but has moved away from it because of argument quality. It reminded me of Jerome's claims to have discarded the satanic round-earth propaganda (pushed by the gummits of the world) in favour of da troof of the flat earth, thanks to his unusually keen (soi-disant) ability to think for himself.
Let's deal with this first.

I am STILL 'lefty', in that I show up in the lower left of the political compass thingie.

I've all my life identified with left. Seriously, it was learning sympathy for the right which made me dislike more of the left.

Have you checked out any of Crowders 'Change My Mind' segments? Youtube made them deliberately hard to find, but they were a great idea. If they didn't work, it wasn't his fault. He posted the unedited interviews.

Have you any knowledge of his legal actions against Youtube, and how that clearly shows an unfair media bias against the right?
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Old 7th June 2020, 01:44 PM   #460059  /  #6048
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When did the right become the victims of media bias? Give me a history of your claim with links. I have an idea when it started happening, but I would like to see the results of your research.

I like to understand the full development of something.


As for Crowder, it looks like the original problem started with a complaint from Carlos Maza, about harrassment and doxing.


It seems that Crowder's comments about Maza did indeed violate YouTube's anti harrassment policy. I have seen this same thing happen with Twitch Hearthstone streamers, when they get all up in each other's face, and start drama about each other. YouTube ignores it UNLESS someone complains, and then they hammer. The point is Hearthstone streamer drama is not about larger political issues.





https://www.businessinsider.com/stev...the-platform-1


Crowder then decided to pull out the "right" victim card, and claim he was being silenced because he was a conservative, not because he was a rude asshat who picked on gay people. It became a real shitstorm, and no one was happy with the outcome.
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Old 7th June 2020, 02:18 PM   #460060  /  #6049
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Evil Duckess
Also, the National Review article you linked too has a link to the actual study. The study has been questioned and there are additional letters and attachments since the study was made. And while the study looks at ALL officer involved shootings, many of which are necessary due to crime, what has everyone's panties in a wad isn't officers shooting and killing criminals, it is about unfair treatment of people of color.



There is a long history here. Yes racism goes back to the days of slavery, but some of the current problem was exacerbated by the "War on Drugs".





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_drugs


John Ehrlichman, an aide to Nixon, said that Nixon used the war on drugs to criminalize and disrupt black and hippie communities and their leaders
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Old 7th June 2020, 02:38 PM   #460061  /  #6050
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.
Interesting. Can you make the specific claims of these writers a bit more precise for me?

Sure. Haidt's work looked at the differences between liberals and conservatives, or more specifically, the differences between WEIRD (Western Educated Industrialised Rich and Democratic) people and the rest of the world. Most people (including in the west) are small c conservative when it comes to social and moral values, i.e value tradition, authority, sanctity as well as care and harm . WEIRD people are socially and morally liberal, i.e don't really value tradition, authority or sanctity but give huge priority to care and harm.

Goodwin and Goodhart have noticed in their work (mostly UK based and charting the rise of populism) that the traditional party loyalties are eroding. Large sections of the working class are abandoning the Labour party going to either Tory or new right wing populist parties (UKIP, Brexit party). What they noticed in their analysis is that traditional left wing parties are dominated by WEIRD people who are prioritising WEIRD wants and needs while not allowing other space for other perspectives. We saw this playing out in Brexit. The left had up until recently been against globalisation because it harms the working classes by driving down wages, weakening job security. But now the left are in favour of globalisation because the left wing parties are now largely middle class and university educated, i.e the people who benefit from globalisation or at the very least aren't harmed by it. Working class Labour members and supporters were told repeatedly to fuck off and join the Tories if they supported Brexit. Many did.

Right wing parties (populists but not always) have observed this growing chasm between the traditional working class, and the left wing parties and have stepped in with taylor made messages to appeal to the traditional working class, combining left wing economic policies with right wing social policies, i.e emphasising national pride, British jobs for British workers, respect for British values. Matthew Goodwin in an interview on the Triggernometry podcast talks about a meeting with Labour where he presented his research on the changing politicial landscape, and warned Labour that they were heading to electoral defeat (this was prior to the 2015 election), they didn't listen. The Conservatives (who recieved this same presentation) did listen and adjusted their messages to scoop up as many alienated and disaffected traditional Labour voters as possible.



Quote:
I know this is merely anecdotal, and anecdotal evidence is very weak, yadda yadda etc.: But as I browse through large bookstores in order to get a sense of the political zeitgeist, I have frequently run into books from right-leaning politicians/pundits/etc. whose whole point is to portray the left en masse as thoroughly evil spawn of satan (sometimes apparently literally). If it's the left who are so closed-minded, why haven't I run into the same thing in reverse?
There are a number of books out there criticising right wing populism and right wing economic policies. Thinking about it, it's probably much more difficult to make broad sweeing generalisations about righties if you consider yourself left wing and progressive. It would be difficult to do without punching down and attacking minority religious groups and the working class.

Last edited by Facetious; 7th June 2020 at 04:10 PM.
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