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Old 8th May 2017, 02:07 PM   #398747  /  #4526
spruce
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Originally Posted by MSG View Post
please tell us more about how much better it was in 2008 when 40% of America had no health insurance at all and don't forget to explain why it's better to pay 3 times as much and die younger
If I may, those who had health insurance prior to our Affordable Healthcare Act under Obamacare generally paid about 3 times less for it. If my brother had had his heart troubles just 1 year earlier he wouldn't have gone broke. As it was, he wound up paying about 5 times what he would have previously paid. He's a public school teacher, so his insurance has been through the State of Georgia, and he has little choice about that.

A few poor people did better under Obama care, but our middle class was hit very hard, with most actually losing affordable healthcare due to very high deductibles, very high premiums, or both - those with health insurance couldn't actually afford to use it.

At least in the proposed American Healthcare Act it looks as if those with insurance will be able to use it, except for those with preconditions, which, yeah, everyone agrees still needs to be fixed.
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Old 8th May 2017, 04:07 PM   #398752  /  #4527
Jerome
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Originally Posted by Majiffy View Post
Please cite why Obamacare precludes care but magically there is care available immediately prior and after repeal.
Because poor people can't afford an over $6,000 deductible, thus they do not have access to health-care even though they have insurance.

Obamacare transferred wealth to big insurance corp and big insurance corp provided less care.
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Old 8th May 2017, 04:12 PM   #398753  /  #4528
Jerome
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Originally Posted by MSG View Post
The Rest Of The World Who Are Stuck With Our Socialised Medicine That Costs A Third As Much And Delivers Empirically Better Health Outcomes Like Greater Life Expectancy And Lower Infant Mortality
Fake stats for morons deluded by national pride.

Other countries count bigger dead babies than we do in the US, so you have less dead babies at age zero than we do just because we count smaller dead babies.

Account for criminal violence in our many big cities, and here you have a shit ton of dead young adults dying from nothing that has to do with health-care, to skew the stats.

The problems with our system are all directly related to government involving itself into the market.
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Old 8th May 2017, 04:15 PM   #398754  /  #4529
Jerome
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Originally Posted by MSG View Post
please tell us more about how much better it was in 2008 when 40% of America had no health insurance at all and don't forget to explain why it's better to pay 3 times as much and die younger
It doesn't matter if someone is forced to buy an insurance policy if they can not access care because the deductible is too high.

Its like giving everyone a car, then making gas too expensive to buy, then claiming look, everyone has a car!!!1!!!1!!! Not that they can use the car they have... what is the point?
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Last edited by Jerome; 8th May 2017 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 8th May 2017, 04:35 PM   #398755  /  #4530
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Ohh, and the majority of our health-care costs are from the inefficient government providing care to the old and poor.

Our spending is on government bureaucracies, and big corp bureaucracies setup by government, not care.

At least care is provided and not limited like the socialized nations.

You people keep your costs down by restricting access to care. There are many examples, such as Canada limiting the number of people allowed to be doctors decades ago, the purpose being if the government limits the number of doctors, they can limit access, thus limit cost.
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Old 8th May 2017, 06:26 PM   #398764  /  #4531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
Ohh, and the majority of our health-care costs are from the inefficient government providing care to the old and poor.

Our spending is on government bureaucracies, and big corp bureaucracies setup by government, not care.

At least care is provided and not limited like the socialized nations.

You people keep your costs down by restricting access to care. There are many examples, such as Canada limiting the number of people allowed to be doctors decades ago, the purpose being if the government limits the number of doctors, they can limit access, thus limit cost.
Dude, you are wrong.

Every insurance company in the US keeps costs down by limiting access to care. And the AMA has tried to limit the number of people who can be doctors for decades, which is why we imported so many doctors.

And I don't see how medicaid or medicare reimbursement can be so terribly inefficient, since it is based on actual cost. And by shelpping the care out to the insurers to handle, they use the insurance companies care guidelines to limit care.


Here have a Study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4283267
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Old 8th May 2017, 08:29 PM   #398768  /  #4532
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lol dummy, your study says exactly what I said, that the vast costs in the US system are because of the government bureaucracies and government created and mandated private bureaucracies!!
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Old 8th May 2017, 08:31 PM   #398769  /  #4533
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Could you name a US insurance company that denies water to people in the hospital so that they dehydrate to death and don't have to pay for their care, like what the government in the UK does on a daily basis?
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Old 8th May 2017, 09:19 PM   #398775  /  #4534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majiffy View Post
Please cite why Obamacare precludes care but magically there is care available immediately prior and after repeal.
Because poor people can't afford an over $6,000 deductible, thus they do not have access to health-care even though they have insurance.

Obamacare transferred wealth to big insurance corp and big insurance corp provided less care.
I have never seen a 6k deductible on any of the 4 plans I've been on.
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Old 8th May 2017, 09:21 PM   #398776  /  #4535
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Basically [citation needed] cuz I can do the anecdotal argument all day but it doesn't prove your argument.

Meanwhile you have failed to address the 3 arguments I made against the AHCA
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Old 8th May 2017, 09:54 PM   #398779  /  #4536
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The average deductible for 2017 bronze plans marks the first time this average has crossed the $6,000 threshold. Compared to 2016’s average of $5,731, the 2017 average bronze plan deductible for individuals is 6% higher ($6,092). For families enrolled in bronze plans, the average deductible is over $12,000 in 2017.
https://www.healthpocket.com/healthc...ms-deductibles
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Old 8th May 2017, 09:57 PM   #398780  /  #4537
Jerome
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Btw, guaranteed that MSG will ignore his claims have been debunked and he will repeat them next time he talks about this subject.
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Old 8th May 2017, 10:13 PM   #398782  /  #4538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spruce View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG View Post
please tell us more about how much better it was in 2008 when 40% of America had no health insurance at all and don't forget to explain why it's better to pay 3 times as much and die younger
If I may, those who had health insurance prior to our Affordable Healthcare Act under Obamacare generally paid about 3 times less for it. If my brother had had his heart troubles just 1 year earlier he wouldn't have gone broke. As it was, he wound up paying about 5 times what he would have previously paid. He's a public school teacher, so his insurance has been through the State of Georgia, and he has little choice about that.

A few poor people did better under Obama care, but our middle class was hit very hard, with most actually losing affordable healthcare due to very high deductibles, very high premiums, or both - those with health insurance couldn't actually afford to use it.

At least in the proposed American Healthcare Act it looks as if those with insurance will be able to use it, except for those with preconditions, which, yeah, everyone agrees still needs to be fixed.
The reference to 3 times as much is to per capita health care costs in the USA compared to countries with universal health care such as Canada, the UK, western Europe and Australia

Last edited by MSG; 8th May 2017 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 8th May 2017, 10:20 PM   #398783  /  #4539
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What you have now is a result of the perversion of the concept by the profit motive. It's what Lieberman and the Senate forced onto Obama in 2010, and the new legislation is just going to push your country back to the terrible world of 2008, the solution is not to place the system in the hands of profit-seeking hmos but to have universal single-payer coverage
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Old 8th May 2017, 10:22 PM   #398784  /  #4540
spruce
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If Australia has universal healthcare then all Earthlings ought to be covered, right?
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Old 8th May 2017, 10:32 PM   #398786  /  #4541
gib
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i like the way MSG is having a debate with Jerome
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Old 8th May 2017, 10:33 PM   #398787  /  #4542
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But he's ignoring all of Jerome's salient points.
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Old 8th May 2017, 10:50 PM   #398788  /  #4543
Jerome
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Originally Posted by MSG View Post
What you have now is a result of the perversion of the concept by the profit motive.
You can thank the profit motive for the vast majority of medical advances, and thank the American consumer for subsidizing drug costs to your shit nation.
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Old 8th May 2017, 10:55 PM   #398789  /  #4544
Jerome
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In Tasmania the wait time for knee replacement surgery is over 400 days.

lol

HaHa!

For 2016 the Australian government touts that 90% of Australians got their surgery within 260 days, as if that is some kind of accomplishment!

A two week wait here is considered a long time.
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Old 8th May 2017, 10:56 PM   #398790  /  #4545
Jerome
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Originally Posted by spruce View Post
If Australia has universal healthcare then all Earthlings ought to be covered, right?
They can't properly provide care to who they have, that is why they beg America to take their refugees.
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Old 8th May 2017, 11:00 PM   #398793  /  #4546
Jerome
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Originally Posted by MSG View Post
The reference to 3 times as much is to per capita health care costs in the USA compared to countries with universal health care such as Canada, the UK, western Europe and Australia
1. Access to more care costs more money

2. Government mandates bureaucracies increase the cost dramatically

3. You will ignore this and repeat your national pride propaganda, just like the NAZIs did with their socialized health-care
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Old 8th May 2017, 11:04 PM   #398794  /  #4547
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Old 8th May 2017, 11:06 PM   #398795  /  #4548
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Originally Posted by Magicziggy View Post
But he's ignoring all of Jerome's salient points.
I do that a lot
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Old 8th May 2017, 11:09 PM   #398798  /  #4549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
Quote:
The average deductible for 2017 bronze plans marks the first time this average has crossed the $6,000 threshold. Compared to 2016’s average of $5,731, the 2017 average bronze plan deductible for individuals is 6% higher ($6,092). For families enrolled in bronze plans, the average deductible is over $12,000 in 2017.
https://www.healthpocket.com/healthc...ms-deductibles
Quote:
Note that the premium and cost-sharing averages assume a nonsmoking individual insurance applicant and does not include any government subsidies that might be applied.


Also looks like they selectively removed a number of states to skew their statistics
Quote:
Data records for 2017 Affordable Care Act health insurance plans offered in 39 states were obtained on October 24, 2016. The government’s Landscape files contained health plan records for the following states: AK, AL, AR, AZ, DE, FL, GA, HI, IA, IL, IN, KS, KY, LA, ME, MI, MO, MS, MT, NC, ND, NE, NH, NJ, NM, NV, OH, OK, OR, PA, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA, WI, WV, and WI.
Notably missing? NY, CA, WA, VT... Big blue states with heavy and/or economically diverse populations.

Wouldn't want to give an accurate snapshot, after all.

Quote:
Medicare, Medicaid, short-term health insurance, and group health insurance plans were not analyzed as part of this study.
All things expanded on by the ACA and covered more people...



Upon analysis, the intentions and motivations of your source are dubious at best.
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Old 8th May 2017, 11:09 PM   #398799  /  #4550
Jerome
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Originally Posted by MSG View Post
I do that a lot
Its the only way to keep your national propaganda in your heart. Facts disrupt that.
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