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Old 8th December 2019, 08:56 PM   #453503  /  #2826
MondoVman
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"Within normal limits" is a conventional term in medicine.

Am no expert, but perhaps 12% to 20% body fat is the healthier half of a
good-normal limits and 20% to 28% is the lesser half of good-normal limits.
Blood cholesterol and other blood content supposedly matter, too, etc. etc.
Peeps in colder climes need greater body fat for better overall health.

Best way to measure fat that I know is with the electronic gizmo at the gym.

However, I think I read a way to estimate body fat by measuring skin thickness
in two places (I think one was in the pec area, the other at the waist) then
plugging those values into a formula.
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Old 8th December 2019, 09:26 PM   #453504  /  #2827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MondoVman View Post
"Within normal limits" is a conventional term in medicine.

Am no expert, but perhaps 12% to 20% body fat is the healthier half of a
good-normal limits and 20% to 28% is the lesser half of good-normal limits.
Blood cholesterol and other blood content supposedly matter, too, etc. etc.
Peeps in colder climes need greater body fat for better overall health.
That is the info I get regularly, but I haven't seen anything to make me think that health risks increase when lowering bodyfat further, until getting to around 8%. Contrariwise, any increase in bodyfat percentage seems to connect pretty directly to increased blood pressure and increased RHR.

Quote:
Best way to measure fat that I know is with the electronic gizmo at the gym.
I think the most accurate available is the dunk thing. Next to that, the dexascan (but who needs more x-rays)

Quote:

However, I think I read a way to estimate body fat by measuring skin thickness
in two places (I think one was in the pec area, the other at the waist) then
plugging those values into a formula.
I've used the skin-fold calipers, and that level of accuracy helps competative bodybuilders dial in their nutrition. I don't need that kind of accuracy, being as my goals are more 'normal-person'.

Currently, I use weight (because my muscle mass can't change all that much over a year anyway) and a measure of my biggest belly (pushed out) and my smallest belly.

I'm beginning to think that a belly measurement might be even more indicative than is an accurate bodyfat read, since it addresses the most obstructive fat (around the waist). It's also where the most dangerous fat is (around organs)

Anyway, I'm still seeing no health reason to keep my bf% above 10. Glad to learn if I'm wrong about it, but I just see no health hazards around being lean. (aside from the invented 'orthorexia nervosa' bullshit)
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Old 10th December 2019, 12:18 AM   #453572  /  #2828
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We broke the record high for this date with 84 degrees today. Cold front coming through overnight. High tomorrow is expected to be about 50.
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Old 10th December 2019, 01:00 AM   #453577  /  #2829
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-33C feels like -46C.

I'm getting ready for a run, but it's a bit intimidating. Wind can make QUITE a difference, and my last 2 km are often very exposed...
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Old 11th December 2019, 01:15 AM   #453609  /  #2830
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12 C (51 F) this evening, which is ridiculously warm for this time of year.

It was a great deal colder a few days ago.
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Old 11th December 2019, 12:27 PM   #453625  /  #2831
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One of Nixie's classmates: "It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas."

Nixie, in response: "It's beginning to look a lot like Cthulhu is rising from the ocean."
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Old 11th December 2019, 10:26 PM   #453629  /  #2832
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I think I'm going to have to do these steaks on the broiler...

Spoiler
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Old 11th December 2019, 10:52 PM   #453630  /  #2833
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brush it off, you deserve steaks done properly
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...these people are idiots.
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Old 11th December 2019, 10:55 PM   #453631  /  #2834
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brush it off, you deserve steaks done properly
Brushing it off should be easy enough, but what about the propane refusing to flow? (gel's at -40ish)
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Old 11th December 2019, 11:02 PM   #453632  /  #2835
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light a small fire under the tank
or bring the tank inside for a while to warm up
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Old 11th December 2019, 11:04 PM   #453633  /  #2836
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light a small fire under the tank
or bring the tank inside for a while to warm up
I've got a tiger torch, but just don't want to do all the fucking around...all I have to do indoors, is to turn on the oven, load it and eat later.

Feel free to come by and grab a shovel if you really want to. I'll share my steak with you if you get here by the time I'm ready to cook them.
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Old 12th December 2019, 04:09 PM   #453653  /  #2837
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Quote:
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Quote:
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It's just very very lightly snowing here right now and -2. Looks wintery outside, in the way you want it to.


Spoiler


Lovely! I'd enjoy the novelty of that for at least a day!
Same :p


Although I can't complain - it's been pretty snow free here. I guess it was just a freak snowfall in November. But being snow free probably just means that it'll start later and end later. Meaning, probably in April.
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Old 12th December 2019, 04:16 PM   #453654  /  #2838
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At 6'1", I expect I should be around 160-170 (unless I have a LOT of muscle) but it's tough to pick a target, if you know what I mean.
That's pretty thin, isn't it? Maybe if you were in your 20's.
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Old 12th December 2019, 04:43 PM   #453657  /  #2839
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Quote:
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At 6'1", I expect I should be around 160-170 (unless I have a LOT of muscle) but it's tough to pick a target, if you know what I mean.
That's pretty thin, isn't it? Maybe if you were in your 20's.
Age doesn't work in that direction.

As men age, their muscle mass decreases (same for women, but less pronounced due to their lower overall muscle)

As this happens, maintaining the same weight means that bodyfat levels are increasing over the years.

It IS thin, but I'm aiming to be a healthy runner for a long time. Thinnest-healthy-body is the goal, with my bodyfat somewhere above 8% (unless I learn something new) and below about 15%.

I don't think I have 'much' muscle, as these things go. With that in mind (I'll get more accurate measurements as they become necessary) my weight should be around there.

At my height, elite athletes range from around 155lbs (marathoner/ultramarathoner) to a bit over 300lbs (powerlifter)

I am a taller person, but there simply is too much fat.

'Chubby-normal' culture has skewed our estimates. Fat apologetics have even made it a bit off-putting to speak clearly about it.

Health is more important than that bit of awkwardness, to me.

Maybe your perspective is different though. Consider this:
I want to be the lightest runner I can be, without sacrificing health/risking disease.
I don't mind eating accurately, to achieve my goals at a reasonable pace of 2lbs/week lost max.

How would you choose a weight/bodyfat level, for me and my goals?
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Old 12th December 2019, 05:03 PM   #453660  /  #2840
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How would you choose a weight/bodyfat level, for me and my goals?
I wouldn't.


Okay, that makes sense though - if your goal is to be super lean for the sake of being a better (healthy) runner, as you said.


I find that I see a lot of people my age or I guess my mom's age even (women) saying that they have too much fat and just are generally unhappy about it.



One of my clients that I was working for, Julie, who is about 80 years old was complaining about fat gathering around her stomach and hips. But otherwise, she is very petite - and she eats very healthy, natural foods and whatnot.


So it bothers me when people say this kind of thing, because I think it's normal, especially for women as they age, to collect some fat in areas, that can't be helped. You don't want to see someone feel bad about themselves, unnecessarily.



Same goes for men too. I feel like it's natural to put on more fat with age. So I wouldn't be too hard on yourself
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Old 12th December 2019, 05:22 PM   #453661  /  #2841
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Quote:
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Quote:
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How would you choose a weight/bodyfat level, for me and my goals?
I wouldn't.


Okay, that makes sense though - if your goal is to be super lean for the sake of being a better (healthy) runner, as you said.
Being exactly the fat level one wishes, IS very straighforward.

Quote:
I find that I see a lot of people my age or I guess my mom's age even (women) saying that they have too much fat and just are generally unhappy about it.
Having excess bodyfat causes many health problems, one which correlates strongly is depression.

I know for a FACT that I feel differently lean, than I do obese. (people treat me different too, but that might not be as relevant)
Quote:
One of my clients that I was working for, Julie, who is about 80 years old was complaining about fat gathering around her stomach and hips. But otherwise, she is very petite - and she eats very healthy, natural foods and whatnot.
This all says nothing about her health. She could be overweight (more dangerous in the elderly) or underweight. The best indicator in my opinion is NOT weight, but bodyfat % (more muscle seems to ALWAYS pay off in improved health - within reason)
Quote:
So it bothers me when people say this kind of thing, because I think it's normal, especially for women as they age, to collect some fat in areas, that can't be helped. You don't want to see someone feel bad about themselves, unnecessarily.
Someone might feel bad about themselves for being fat at 270lbs, and STILL feel bad about themselves for being fat at 200lbs. (I know - trust me)

That feeling doesn't matter nearly as much as other health metrics (blood pressure, 2-minute-heart-recovery-rate, gut health)

Thing is, with careful nutrition, everyone can change their weight by a pound a week, to within the 'healthy' bars. It's more complicated to gain weight, but losing it is VERY easy (as long as you do it healthy)
Quote:



Same goes for men too. I feel like it's natural to put on more fat with age. So I wouldn't be too hard on yourself
Why would it be 'natural' to put on more fat? I've seen plenty of thin old folks. Some arguably are healthier than their chubby peers.

As to being 'hard on yourself', I would think that being under OR overweight would qualify as being 'hard on yourself'.

This is why I think it's important to have a clear range of 'healthy weight' for one'sself, and eat your way there.

If, for example, you, your doc and your family all decide that your 'healthy weight' is between 120 and 140 lbs (wildly guessing here), then when your weight nudges out of that range, you know to take immediate action to correct course.

What is really HARD on people is having an unclear, unattainable or unrealistic goal.

If you choose a weight, and eat your way above it, I say you SHOULD be hard on yourself (nutrition-wise) and that is because if you don't, it will make the rest of your life even harder.

So my premise, is that you choose a 'healthy weight range' (as I have) and steer within it with good eating. Not talking about organic, gluten-free or any of that bullshit, just eating a targeted amount each day.

If on a cut, I am extremely careful to eat all high-quality foods (no candy/chips/chocolate) since I'm a bit depleted. If eating 'maintenance' I have a bit more wiggle room, so can eat empty calories.

My guess is, if you let me feed you for a day, you would feel very well fed, even while on a 'cut' (20% below TDEE). A 'diet' that leaves one hungry is a stupid hard thing to do.
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Old 13th December 2019, 08:07 PM   #453697  /  #2842
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Why would it be 'natural' to put on more fat? I've seen plenty of thin old folks. Some arguably are healthier than their chubby peers.
I dunno. It's what I observe

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If, for example, you, your doc and your family all decide that your 'healthy weight' is between 120 and 140 lbs (wildly guessing here), then when your weight nudges out of that range, you know to take immediate action to correct course.
No! I decide!

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What is really HARD on people is having an unclear, unattainable or unrealistic goal.
Sure

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If you choose a weight, and eat your way above it, I say you SHOULD be hard on yourself (nutrition-wise) and that is because if you don't, it will make the rest of your life even harder.
You can be firm with yourself. No need to criticize yourself though.

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So my premise, is that you choose a 'healthy weight range' (as I have) and steer within it with good eating. Not talking about organic, gluten-free or any of that bullshit, just eating a targeted amount each day.

If on a cut, I am extremely careful to eat all high-quality foods (no candy/chips/chocolate) since I'm a bit depleted. If eating 'maintenance' I have a bit more wiggle room, so can eat empty calories.
It's good that you do that.

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My guess is, if you let me feed you for a day, you would feel very well fed, even while on a 'cut' (20% below TDEE). A 'diet' that leaves one hungry is a stupid hard thing to do.
No thank you, I need my calories
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Old 13th December 2019, 09:21 PM   #453701  /  #2843
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Quote:
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Quote:
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Why would it be 'natural' to put on more fat?
I dunno. It's what I observe
It's 'normal' in our world, but that doesn't mean it is a good result, or something at all positive.

Though it sure is pitched as fine and a good result.
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Quote:
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If, for example, you, your doc and your family all decide that your 'healthy weight' is between 120 and 140 lbs (wildly guessing here), then when your weight nudges out of that range, you know to take immediate action to correct course.
No! I decide!
While I respect your decision, why would you reject your doctor, and those who you love?

Unless you are so expert in health that you don't need outside feedback...

I think rejecting the people around me would be a bit insulting to them. I lean on others for expertise and support in many contexts, so this one looks no different to me.

I even ask others around what the optimal bodyfat range IS, because I don't know enough about it yet.

What I DO know, without hesitation, is that above a certain level, humans are going to experience certain negative health effects.

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Quote:
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If you choose a weight, and eat your way above it, I say you SHOULD be hard on yourself (nutrition-wise) and that is because if you don't, it will make the rest of your life even harder.
You can be firm with yourself. No need to criticize yourself though.
Firm is a synonym of hard.

If there is a bodyfat level, above which creates consistent poor health outcomes in humans, why is it wrong to be hard about it?

Life has lots of hard things in it. One of them is that the only way to get obese is for a person to eat above their TDEE consistently.

With obesity being rampant, wouldn't it be a good, hard fact to keep in sight?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
So my premise, is that you choose a 'healthy weight range' (as I have) and steer within it with good eating. Not talking about organic, gluten-free or any of that bullshit, just eating a targeted amount each day.

If on a cut, I am extremely careful to eat all high-quality foods (no candy/chips/chocolate) since I'm a bit depleted. If eating 'maintenance' I have a bit more wiggle room, so can eat empty calories.
It's good that you do that.
I prioritize health over being sensitive about this issue.

It really looks like there are endless people refusing to speak clearly about it, and huge problems with our obesity.
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Quote:
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My guess is, if you let me feed you for a day, you would feel very well fed, even while on a 'cut' (20% below TDEE). A 'diet' that leaves one hungry is a stupid hard thing to do.
No thank you, I need my calories
I wasn't genuinely offering, just to demostrate that eating 'on a cut' can still be plenty nutritious and filling.

Anyone who puts in a genuine effort, can learn to eat correctly and be at their chosen weight in a sensibly short time (.5kg/week for example). I've noticed that many seem to be under the impression that weight just 'comes on as you get older', or such. It doesn't, it is a result of EVERYONE'S nutrition plan ('No Plan' is a very common plan)
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Old 14th December 2019, 12:27 AM   #453704  /  #2844
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Quote:
'No Plan' is a very common plan
BOOM!
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Old 14th December 2019, 03:00 AM   #453709  /  #2845
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I wasn't genuinely offering
I'm aware
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Old 14th December 2019, 10:59 PM   #453722  /  #2846
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Originally Posted by MondoVman View Post
Quote:
'No Plan' is a very common plan
BOOM!
I mean to be fitter than you, MondoVman.

You just retired from rock climbing, if I recall correctly. May I ask what sort of activities you are using now?
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Old 14th December 2019, 11:16 PM   #453723  /  #2847
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Few more pics of the race today.

Extreme cold, which will stay around until about mid-March.

Spoiler


Odd thing about the above photo...I often wear a 'noxgear tracer 360' when running. I didn't wear it today, but the marks on my back look like it was there.

I wonder how that happened...

Spoiler
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Old 15th December 2019, 05:13 AM   #453726  /  #2848
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For my age I think my fitness is about an 8 or 9 out of 10.

I no longer risk hopping off 6 inch high curbs onto street level.
I avoid sudden movements, too.

My basketball is out on loan for 1 week until Monday.

I ride my bike between 2 and 12 miles about 5 or more days a week. This is
coupled with volunteer landscaping and trash removal along the canal, which
is great use of back and leg muscles and often getting up and down from a
sitting position:
1. See trash/glass
2. Sit down
3. Remove all trash within reach
4. Ask others to join you.

Re-discovering the benefits of a basketball has doubled my cardio-breathing.

My gym plan is 2 days on, 1 day off. Recently went 7 or 8 days in a row,
because my body said "yes", but the better sanity is sticking to the 2 on 1 off plan
with no more than 3 or 4 days in a row. I cycle through 3 routines:
chest, tris, abs; legs and shoulders; back and biceps. My memory is a spreadsheet.

Most recently I committed to daily posture exercises for 1 year starting the 1st of this month.
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Old 15th December 2019, 05:57 PM   #453728  /  #2849
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26 c here today.
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Old 15th December 2019, 07:03 PM   #453731  /  #2850
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For my age I think my fitness is about an 8 or 9 out of 10.
Thanks very much, MondoVman, but here you touch on one of the reasons I try to use individuals instead of the googlez for this kind of info.

I could find out what the majority success is (I have done a bit) but YOU are different. YOU I disagree with.

(**side note - I disagreed ignorantly with some minor decision you made about your health, and rather than assume you are wrong, I assumed I was, and tried to find out more I might disagree with)

The nature of the disagreement is not important, just that I had it. I have terrible reflexes and education around fitness/sport. It's true that I love it now, and that enthusiasm and the med-high level of fitness I possess, can make me think I know more than I do.

Mostly I do agree with what you say, so it doesn't create these strong memories, but when I disagree, I try to get the most out of it. I've learned very little from people I agree with. The way my mind works, I guess.
Quote:

I no longer risk hopping off 6 inch high curbs onto street level.
I avoid sudden movements, too.
I would not have suspected that 6" drop would be a place to start, but it does make a lot of sense. Landing is your whole body on one limb, so pretty intense.

As I've suspected in the past, this probably puts a time limit on my running. I plan to run until I'm 100, but haven't very clearly defined what that means yet.
Quote:

My basketball is out on loan for 1 week until Monday.
To me, this would seem more dangerous than hopping off a 6" curb. Are you playing games? Doing some drills/upper body cardio?
Quote:
I ride my bike between 2 and 12 miles about 5 or more days a week. This is
coupled with volunteer landscaping and trash removal along the canal, which
is great use of back and leg muscles and often getting up and down from a
sitting position:
1. See trash/glass
2. Sit down
3. Remove all trash within reach
This seems a lot smarter than bending and grabbing (which would be my first instinct)
A physiologist I was listening to recommended sitting on the floor. Just that change provides lots of stretching and gentle strength exercises. She recommended it with the fervor of an ex-fat recommending eating right, implying heaps of benefits.

Like my shoe-install-dance, I think it's a mundane path to greatness.

Quote:
4. Ask others to join you.
Fucking smart. Fucking smart.

This is one of the components I've been working a bit more diligently on. So important to fitness (to other things as well)

But SO important to fitness.
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Re-discovering the benefits of a basketball has doubled my cardio-breathing.
OK, basketball looks like a bunch of 6" jumps and sudden movements...could you explain a bit more?
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My gym plan is 2 days on, 1 day off. Recently went 7 or 8 days in a row,
because my body said "yes", but the better sanity is sticking to the 2 on 1 off plan
with no more than 3 or 4 days in a row.
I aim for 7 days a week, with irregular 'off' days (randomly determined) to bring me to about 90% of that.
I suppose I'll adapt that as long-term results start coming in.
Quote:
I cycle through 3 routines:
chest, tris, abs; legs and shoulders; back and biceps. My memory is a spreadsheet.
Sounds well-rounded. I've been diligently noting everything on a spreadsheet for some time now. Not using it, reviewing it, or ever glancing back at it...

All those metrics might not be worth keeping, but habits, you know...

The only workout sheets I DO look through are from a fellow runner, ex-military/ex-physician/750+ marathoner and lifelong runner. He has kept unusually detailed records which include recovery details around several injuries and surgeries.

It's a bit inspiring, a bit intimidating.

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Most recently I committed to daily posture exercises for 1 year starting the 1st of this month.
I did one called 'Scooby's Rotisserie' for 1 year, each morning, with my sweetheart. We were thrilled with the results and don't remember why it fell off.

Are your posture exercises similar? Or something else?

Photo included to try to stay slightly on-topic...

Both of these friends in the photo with me were not winter-runners. They both participated in the Hoarfrost run this year, in brutal temperatures. Hoarfrost everywhere!
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