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News, Sports & Politics Hello, good evening, and welcome...

View Poll Results: Is whoring ethically defensible?
Yes 3 75.00%
No 1 25.00%
Bacon and Cheese 0 0%
Voters: 4. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 14th July 2018, 11:15 PM   #434144  /  #26
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Most of the organized crime problems with illegal things like drugs and prostitution dissapear when legalized and regulated ijs
So the human trafficking that continues through legalized prostitution channels are ok with you? Or 'disappeared'?

There are still plenty of problems, I just don't know where.

Early on, it looked like they were going to focus on the 'exploitation' part of the business transaction, which sounds nice in a song, but harder to work out with a pencil.

The thing is, if it's legal, the hookers can go to the police.

Whether they do or not is another question, but it gives them that option.
Most of the time they have two illegal problems, prostitution and immigration. At least you can remove one.
It sounds good on paper, but a feminist I respect and argue with reminded me of a few things.

To paraphrase, the exploitation is a real danger with private negotiations being...um...encourgaged.

The reality of how sex work plays out isn't at all like the philosophical nonsense we bat around here, while not sucking genitals for cash.

One way I've tried to think about it is as an investor. Would I invest in a bordello, knowing that I would pull my investment in 5 years, before all the trouble stormed in (consequences can take a while to pile up)?

The answer for now is no. I couldn't be involved because if I bailed in 5 years with a bunch of profit, I would feel like an asshole during the next 10, while the consequences appeared and played out.

So if there WAS a good 'whoring' model, myself, borealis and anyone else here who thinks of themselves as decent persons, would be ok investing in it.

I can't speak for borealis, but I would guess that she also is reluctant to invest in a bordello just yet.
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Old 14th July 2018, 11:16 PM   #434145  /  #27
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The thing is, if it's legal, the hookers can go to the police.

Whether they do or not is another question, but it gives them that option.
Most of the time they have two illegal problems, prostitution and immigration. At least you can remove one.
This reminds me, Zeluvia. How can a 'John' earn your esteem? Are there any customers of whores you respect? Or is there something still a bit screwy about it in your mind, too?
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Old 15th July 2018, 01:35 AM   #434146  /  #28
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Nope, doesn't bother me at all. In fact, you missed my entire point. I don't think of politicians as exclusively male, and the word Hooker is one of the most gender inclusive words there is.


My point was that the word Whore implies a selling out, as in a selling out of your personal integrity. Ergo, politicians.


The word hooker doesn't have those same connotations. Last time I checked, it was the preferred self descriptive word for anyone in the business.
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Old 15th July 2018, 04:21 AM   #434155  /  #29
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I haven't heard local prostitutes referred to as 'whores' here at all. I suspect it's more a local word usage thing. They've always been called hookers or street girls.

I agree with Zeluvia - the word 'whore' has gotten attached to a lot of people whose activities are considerably less honest than the average sex worker. Language changes.

The current laws in Canada make selling sex legal (in specific circumstances), but buying it is illegal:

Quote:
Current laws on prostitution in Canada, introduced in 2014, make it illegal to purchase sexual services but legal to sell them. According to the Canadian Department of Justice, the new legal framework "reflects a significant paradigm shift away from the treatment of prostitution as 'nuisance', as found by the Supreme Court of Canada in Bedford, toward treatment of prostitution as a form of sexual exploitation that disproportionately and negatively impacts on women and girls".[1] Many sex workers' rights organizations, however, argue that the new law entrenches and maintains harm against sex workers.
The new laws came in response to the Canada (AG) v Bedford ruling of the Supreme Court of Canada, which found to be unconstitutional the laws prohibiting brothels, public communication for the purpose of prostitution and living on the profits of prostitution. The ruling gave the Canadian parliament 12 months to rewrite the prostitution laws with a stay of effect so that the current laws remain in force.[2] Amending legislation came into effect on 6 December 2014, which made the purchase of sexual services illegal.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Canada


But really the laws are a morass when you dig a bit deeper.

I've known a fair number of prostitutes, primarily because I looked after their children in day care, and later a few of the children (not necessarily prostitutes' children) took up hooking. Way too often drug addiction and/or lack of education and difficulty of obtaining resources was why women (and young men as well) became sex workers. There is a lot of exploitation, particularly of drug addicted prostitutes. There is a lot of violence and a lot of death. There are a lot of people doing sex work who would much rather do almost anything else, but drug use or past criminal convictions or simple lack of skills make it difficult to do anything else. (I knew an illiterate woman who came to pick up her kids in a state of extreme joy because she'd been hired by a strip club.)
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Old 15th July 2018, 06:00 AM   #434163  /  #30
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It's been legal in areas of Nevada for a very long time. Maybe you should google that : )
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Old 16th July 2018, 04:38 PM   #434214  /  #31
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Nope, doesn't bother me at all. In fact, you missed my entire point. I don't think of politicians as exclusively male, and the word Hooker is one of the most gender inclusive words there is.


My point was that the word Whore implies a selling out, as in a selling out of your personal integrity. Ergo, politicians.


The word hooker doesn't have those same connotations. Last time I checked, it was the preferred self descriptive word for anyone in the business.
So then I ask which people, who hire hookers, have your public respect?

If sex work is respectable, shouldn't hiring sex workers be as respectable?
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Old 16th July 2018, 04:42 PM   #434216  /  #32
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I haven't heard local prostitutes referred to as 'whores' here at all. I suspect it's more a local word usage thing. They've always been called hookers or street girls.

I agree with Zeluvia - the word 'whore' has gotten attached to a lot of people whose activities are considerably less honest than the average sex worker. Language changes.

The current laws in Canada make selling sex legal (in specific circumstances), but buying it is illegal:

Quote:
Current laws on prostitution in Canada, introduced in 2014, make it illegal to purchase sexual services but legal to sell them. According to the Canadian Department of Justice, the new legal framework "reflects a significant paradigm shift away from the treatment of prostitution as 'nuisance', as found by the Supreme Court of Canada in Bedford, toward treatment of prostitution as a form of sexual exploitation that disproportionately and negatively impacts on women and girls".[1] Many sex workers' rights organizations, however, argue that the new law entrenches and maintains harm against sex workers.
The new laws came in response to the Canada (AG) v Bedford ruling of the Supreme Court of Canada, which found to be unconstitutional the laws prohibiting brothels, public communication for the purpose of prostitution and living on the profits of prostitution. The ruling gave the Canadian parliament 12 months to rewrite the prostitution laws with a stay of effect so that the current laws remain in force.[2] Amending legislation came into effect on 6 December 2014, which made the purchase of sexual services illegal.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Canada


But really the laws are a morass when you dig a bit deeper.

I've known a fair number of prostitutes, primarily because I looked after their children in day care, and later a few of the children (not necessarily prostitutes' children) took up hooking. Way too often drug addiction and/or lack of education and difficulty of obtaining resources was why women (and young men as well) became sex workers. There is a lot of exploitation, particularly of drug addicted prostitutes. There is a lot of violence and a lot of death. There are a lot of people doing sex work who would much rather do almost anything else, but drug use or past criminal convictions or simple lack of skills make it difficult to do anything else. (I knew an illiterate woman who came to pick up her kids in a state of extreme joy because she'd been hired by a strip club.)
Yup.

It ends up being horrible, very often.

That's probably why I can't think of anyone I respect who hires prostitutes/hookers/whores.

If it is somehow honest and fair work, shouldn't there be a way to respect those using the service?
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Old 16th July 2018, 05:23 PM   #434217  /  #33
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That's probably why I can't think of anyone I respect who hires prostitutes/hookers/whores.

If it is somehow honest and fair work, shouldn't there be a way to respect those using the service?

I think there are a lot of people, particularly men, but also some women, who by reason of age or physical disability or perhaps other reasons, are unlikely to lead sexually fulfilling lives in the general course of mutual attraction. I don't see any reason to disrespect them for seeking sex for money.


As for 'honest and fair work', in the current atmosphere of coercion, exploitation, substance abuse, and violence, it's pretty hard to judge when it's 'honest and fair' or it isn't.


The 'disrespect' shown to users of the services mostly has to do with the disrespect (and sometimes violence) many of them show towards the workers.


(And of course, historic 'morality'.)
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Old 16th July 2018, 05:37 PM   #434218  /  #34
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That's probably why I can't think of anyone I respect who hires prostitutes/hookers/whores.

If it is somehow honest and fair work, shouldn't there be a way to respect those using the service?

I think there are a lot of people, particularly men, but also some women, who by reason of age or physical disability or perhaps other reasons, are unlikely to lead sexually fulfilling lives in the general course of mutual attraction. I don't see any reason to disrespect them for seeking sex for money.
I have a pal who is in i wheelchair, and I agree with you on not disrespecting them for seeking sex for money.

Why shouldn't that respect extend to someone who wants to pay clearly for sex, rather than having a traditional relationship?

If a sex worker offers to trade rubbing their warm hole for 50 bucks, which customers should be allowed to take advantage?

Quote:
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As for 'honest and fair work', in the current atmosphere of coercion, exploitation, substance abuse, and violence, it's pretty hard to judge when it's 'honest and fair' or it isn't.
Most jobs have similar issues...
Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post


The 'disrespect' shown to users of the services mostly has to do with the disrespect (and sometimes violence) many of them show towards the workers.


(And of course, historic 'morality'.)
How do we identify the difference?

If a whore offers no-strings sex for money, do you have to check your privilege before accepting?

Our Canadian whores mentioned 'exploitation' as the problem, and I agree that it is. Trouble is, if we outlawed 'exploitation of paid employees', it would leak onto other employment areas.

For instance, would it be more degrading to force someone to put a lot of overtime hours cleaning toilets? Or sucking a strangers genitals 20 minutes a day? Doesn't it depend on the person?

Doesn't it depend of the desperation?

If we respect the person who hires a sex worker, I think it breaks a lot of taboos which aren't broken by sympathy for the workers themselves.

It always ends up seeming that the argument treats all sex workers like victims (they AREN'T) and all purchasers like exploiters (they AREN'T)

The world is a lot grayer, and my black and white thinking on this is why I am picking at it.
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Old 16th July 2018, 05:45 PM   #434221  /  #35
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Frankly, I disapprove strongly of 'exploitation of paid employees' across the board, and nobody should be forced into any kind of work. It's not about 'degradation', it's about coercion. Coercion is wrong, unless you're talking about law enforcement arresting people or prison rules etc.


Outside of prisons, there are few situations where coercing adults to do anything is right.
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Old 16th July 2018, 05:46 PM   #434222  /  #36
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Swear I just had post deja vu - or dementia has set in, how to tell the difference?
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Old 16th July 2018, 05:48 PM   #434223  /  #37
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Frankly, I disapprove strongly of 'exploitation of paid employees' across the board, and nobody should be forced into any kind of work. It's not about 'degradation', it's about coercion. Coercion is wrong, unless you're talking about law enforcement arresting people or prison rules etc.


Outside of prisons, there are few situations where coercing adults to do anything is right.
Disapprove all you want, you are likely participating in that exploitation.

So am I.

For example, I've worked in food processing plants. It is awful to remember how many of the workers were deeply depressed to have to go do those tasks every day. Many of them were genuinely sad.

I'm not describing the sadness well enough...

Ok, one killed himself. THAT sad.

Anyway, exploitation can be with, or without the employers direction...some of it depends on an employees life and experience.
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Old 16th July 2018, 07:19 PM   #434231  /  #38
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If such employers are aware of the awfulness of their workplaces, they are exploiting those workers, and it is wrong.

Some of us do the best we can to avoid consuming goods where we have at least a reasonable notion that the workers are treated like shit. I doubt anyone can be pure in this way, but we can try, and it's still exploitation and humans should at least try to reduce it and not pretend it's okay because 'people have to work'.
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Old 16th July 2018, 07:25 PM   #434232  /  #39
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Let me pose this bit of reality: I know a man who owns a couple honey trucks, drives one himself, has several employees. It's a disgusting job, really awful in many ways, although over the years he's upgraded his equipment to make it less horrible. He and his employees, however, are quite cheerful about the work because they are paid really well and treated well and given protective items to mitigate the unsavory nature of the job.


IOW, there are lots of awful jobs out there, but a decent human being, as an employer, should not have to exploit workers or make them miserable. If s/he does, she should find another way to make a profit or get out of the business.
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Old 16th July 2018, 08:00 PM   #434236  /  #40
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Let me pose this bit of reality: I know a man who owns a couple honey trucks, drives one himself, has several employees. It's a disgusting job, really awful in many ways, although over the years he's upgraded his equipment to make it less horrible. He and his employees, however, are quite cheerful about the work because they are paid really well and treated well and given protective items to mitigate the unsavory nature of the job.


IOW, there are lots of awful jobs out there, but a decent human being, as an employer, should not have to exploit workers or make them miserable. If s/he does, she should find another way to make a profit or get out of the business.
So how do you tell the difference between an exploitation by a john, or a decent john treating their prostitute right?

Would THEY know the difference? Should they be expected to?
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Old 16th July 2018, 10:23 PM   #434241  /  #41
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Most of the organized crime problems with illegal things like drugs and prostitution dissapear massively increase when legalized and regulated ijs
Fixed your post
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Old 16th July 2018, 10:24 PM   #434242  /  #42
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Old 16th July 2018, 10:27 PM   #434243  /  #43
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Most of the organized crime problems with illegal things like drugs and prostitution dissapear massively increase when legalized and regulated ijs
Fixed your post
[citation needed]

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Also you spelled disappear incorrectly.
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Old 16th July 2018, 10:40 PM   #434245  /  #44
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Most of the organized crime problems with illegal things like drugs and prostitution dissapear massively increase when legalized and regulated ijs
Fixed your post
[citation needed]
You first.
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Old 16th July 2018, 10:51 PM   #434246  /  #45
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That's probably why I can't think of anyone I respect who hires prostitutes/hookers/whores.

If it is somehow honest and fair work, shouldn't there be a way to respect those using the service?

I think there are a lot of people, particularly men, but also some women, who by reason of age or physical disability or perhaps other reasons, are unlikely to lead sexually fulfilling lives in the general course of mutual attraction. I don't see any reason to disrespect them for seeking sex for money.
I can't see any reason to respect somebody who has sex with an obviously unwilling partner, and does so because they feel entitled to on account of having paid for access to that person's body.
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Old 16th July 2018, 10:55 PM   #434247  /  #46
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I can't see any reason to respect somebody who has sex with an obviously unwilling partner, and does so because they feel entitled to on account of having paid for access to that person's body.
What about taking money for sex?

Can you respect that? Or is it similarly entitled and gross?
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:25 AM   #434248  /  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majiffy View Post
Most of the organized crime problems with illegal things like drugs and prostitution dissapear massively increase when legalized and regulated ijs
Fixed your post
[citation needed]
You first.
It's prima facie as far as I see. I can even point to Prohibition as a major historical example.
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:30 AM   #434249  /  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
Quote:
That's probably why I can't think of anyone I respect who hires prostitutes/hookers/whores.

If it is somehow honest and fair work, shouldn't there be a way to respect those using the service?

I think there are a lot of people, particularly men, but also some women, who by reason of age or physical disability or perhaps other reasons, are unlikely to lead sexually fulfilling lives in the general course of mutual attraction. I don't see any reason to disrespect them for seeking sex for money.
I can't see any reason to respect somebody who has sex with an obviously unwilling partner, and does so because they feel entitled to on account of having paid for access to that person's body.
"obviously unwilling"

Plenty of other on-the-record interviews with sex workers are also available that greatly dispute your perspective.
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:55 AM   #434250  /  #49
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I can't see any reason to respect somebody who has sex with an obviously unwilling partner, and does so because they feel entitled to on account of having paid for access to that person's body.
What about taking money for sex?

Can you respect that? Or is it similarly entitled and gross?

I am not disgusted by people who for reasons of poverty or drug addiction or childhood sexual abuse or coercion or a combination of the above, find themselves obliged to take payment for access to their bodies.

I am only disgusted by those who think they have the right to pay for sexual access to other people's bodies.
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Old 17th July 2018, 01:48 AM   #434252  /  #50
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Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majiffy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majiffy View Post
Most of the organized crime problems with illegal things like drugs and prostitution dissapear massively increase when legalized and regulated ijs
Fixed your post
[citation needed]
You first.
It's prima facie as far as I see. I can even point to Prohibition as a major historical example.
Legalising prostitution increases the demand from men, but it doesn't increase the supply of women to match the increased demand.



Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
Quote:
That's probably why I can't think of anyone I respect who hires prostitutes/hookers/whores.

If it is somehow honest and fair work, shouldn't there be a way to respect those using the service?

I think there are a lot of people, particularly men, but also some women, who by reason of age or physical disability or perhaps other reasons, are unlikely to lead sexually fulfilling lives in the general course of mutual attraction. I don't see any reason to disrespect them for seeking sex for money.
I can't see any reason to respect somebody who has sex with an obviously unwilling partner, and does so because they feel entitled to on account of having paid for access to that person's body.
"obviously unwilling"

Plenty of other on-the-record interviews with sex workers are also available that greatly dispute your perspective.

Yes. Imagine yourself in a situation where you're compelled to have sex with a person you find sexually repellant? Imagine you're renting a room in a brothel and you need to have sex with 4 such people before you start making any money after the cost of room hire. Do you think you could afford to be picky?

I can't watch that video just now, does she say she would recommend that job to a daughter or a sister or a close female friend?
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