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Human Endeavour Includes thinking really hard...

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Old 3rd May 2013, 02:43 AM   #93171  /  #1
charlou
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life, death, and such ponderings..

Until recently I'd kinda related to the quasi idealised spin that gets trotted out on such occasions that if someone dies in their eighties or so they've had a good long life, and we can all take something positive from that, even if its only some personal solace ... while in the back of my mind lay the niggling knowledge that for a few I've known, death was not welcome, even at that age.

Recently heard that statistics for longevity are now at an average age of 84 for women, and 79 for men .. which begs an obvious question ... but also got me thinking again about the above, and something someone said, which I absolutely understood in that moment on a personal level, about the tragedy of life being death.
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Old 3rd May 2013, 05:25 AM   #93193  /  #2
Jerome
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I don't think we die, just transition, to what .. no idea.
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Old 3rd May 2013, 06:28 AM   #93207  /  #3
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Whatever makes you feel better, Jerome. Ever kill something? A bug, maybe? Do you think it transitioned?
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Old 3rd May 2013, 06:29 AM   #93208  /  #4
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Statistically, based on my age, gender and the country where I will spend most of my life, my life expectancy is around 82.

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/y...ectancy-by-age

I may be able to eek out another year if I move to San Marino
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Old 3rd May 2013, 06:43 AM   #93210  /  #5
Jerome
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Do you think it transitioned?
Could have, idk.
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Old 3rd May 2013, 10:28 AM   #93224  /  #6
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what's the point of eeking out another year?
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Old 3rd May 2013, 10:53 AM   #93226  /  #7
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what's the point of eeking out another year?
are we doing a memescape here?
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Old 3rd May 2013, 10:55 AM   #93227  /  #8
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Old 3rd May 2013, 05:18 PM   #93243  /  #9
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pity.
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req can be pretty smooth.
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Old 3rd May 2013, 05:28 PM   #93244  /  #10
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When everything is done and dusted with this existence, all that will have taken place was the place itself. From the level of the individual atom to the universe itself, same story.

It's not that there's "more" to reality, but that there isn't enough to make it worthwhile - for itself - worth doing. The tragedy of life is death, likewise the tragedy of the universe is to be until it is not.

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What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence - even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned upside down again and again, and you with it, speck of dust!"
Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus?... Or how well disposed would you have to become to yourself and to life to crave nothing more fervently than this ultimate eternal confirmation and seal?
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Old 3rd May 2013, 05:38 PM   #93246  /  #11
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Do we ever really lose track of being ephemeral once that awareness is achieved? Existence has to become pretty terrible to make nonexistence preferable. Having seen what that is like for others that I loved, I hope for a (slightly) untimely and unwelcome exit.
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Old 3rd May 2013, 06:05 PM   #93248  /  #12
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Do we ever really lose track of being ephemeral once that awareness is achieved?
Momentarily, here and there, we do of course. There are still times I feel immortal, without really fully consciously realizing it we all act as-if we are without end. But I think that once the logic of the existential game finally asserts itself on the conscious subject, the field is open as to where it leads.

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Existence has to become pretty terrible to make nonexistence preferable.
To read a statement like that alongside death of God materialist theology is a pretty profound dialectical interaction. Being God would be shit terrible, and the only worthwhile thing such a being should do is write itself out of existence at the first opportunity.

There is an interesting undertone of rebellion to many suicides, perhaps the whole concept really embodies a kind of two fingered salute to reality.

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Having seen what that is like for others that I loved, I hope for a (slightly) untimely and unwelcome exit.
I'd like the metaphysical suicide, given the option.
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Old 3rd May 2013, 11:34 PM   #93263  /  #13
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I really don't get the whole life extension thing. Many people I have known who were over 85, including my grandparents, felt lonely and useless and wanted out. And they were not well physically, and were largely either housebound or in care.

The biologists hypothesise that in traditional societies, those people who lived to old age (and of course most people didn't) were able to help their children with raising the next generation. But now more people are living past 70, & those people are living long enough to see the generation after that.

For what? After the GFC, a lot of people whose retirement savings were knocked around had to go back to work. The government is changing the rules so people can work until they are 70. While at the other end, out is getting very hard to get a job with decent pay if you haven't been in education until your mid 20s.

Why do we want to live so long and spend our old age with nothing to do?
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Old 3rd May 2013, 11:37 PM   #93264  /  #14
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Quote:
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Do you think it transitioned?
Could have, idk.
That's not an answer to the question of what *you* think happened. Sure, it could have transitioned into a teapot orbiting the planet. Do you believe it did?

What known life forms transition? Do you draw a line somewhere between humans and say a fungus or paramecium?
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Old 3rd May 2013, 11:39 PM   #93265  /  #15
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Why do we want to live so long and spend our old age with nothing to do?
I don't want to retire. I like working. Sure, scaling back in my later years would be cool, but I like working. I'd hate to have nothing to do.
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Old 4th May 2013, 07:24 AM   #93287  /  #16
UncaYimmy
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This was my dog.


I had to put him down today. This is him right afterwards.


The heart I drew is the shape and size of the malignant tumor. I don't believe he "transitioned." I believe whatever it was that made up Ebbett is gone forever. I was and am very sad. It was hard to do. I made him as comfortable as possible during the process of putting him down.

To me any notion of "transitioning" is just a coping mechanism to ease the pain of losing someone you love. I'd rather face my grief head-on. It's perfectly understandable and for the most part harmless to invent afterlife stories. I would never take the active step of bursting someone's bubble, but in the context of an open discussion like this, I'll express my views.
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Old 4th May 2013, 03:38 PM   #93299  /  #17
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Originally Posted by MSG View Post
I really don't get the whole life extension thing. Many people I have known who were over 85, including my grandparents, felt lonely and useless and wanted out. And they were not well physically, and were largely either housebound or in care.

The biologists hypothesise that in traditional societies, those people who lived to old age (and of course most people didn't) were able to help their children with raising the next generation. But now more people are living past 70, & those people are living long enough to see the generation after that.

For what? After the GFC, a lot of people whose retirement savings were knocked around had to go back to work. The government is changing the rules so people can work until they are 70. While at the other end, out is getting very hard to get a job with decent pay if you haven't been in education until your mid 20s.

Why do we want to live so long and spend our old age with nothing to do?
Yeah well it's hardly like "retirement schemes" are part of the natural state of things. No wonder the old are miserable when they've been skanked by a system which turns around when they're old and says 'fooled ya!'.
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Old 4th May 2013, 03:43 PM   #93300  /  #18
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I'm sorry Jimmy.
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Old 4th May 2013, 04:30 PM   #93319  /  #19
MSG
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Originally Posted by Requiem View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG View Post
I really don't get the whole life extension thing. Many people I have known who were over 85, including my grandparents, felt lonely and useless and wanted out. And they were not well physically, and were largely either housebound or in care.

The biologists hypothesise that in traditional societies, those people who lived to old age (and of course most people didn't) were able to help their children with raising the next generation. But now more people are living past 70, & those people are living long enough to see the generation after that.

For what? After the GFC, a lot of people whose retirement savings were knocked around had to go back to work. The government is changing the rules so people can work until they are 70. While at the other end, out is getting very hard to get a job with decent pay if you haven't been in education until your mid 20s.

Why do we want to live so long and spend our old age with nothing to do?
Yeah well it's hardly like "retirement schemes" are part of the natural state of things. No wonder the old are miserable when they've been skanked by a system which turns around when they're old and says 'fooled ya!'.
yabbut living to 80 or 90 isn't part of the natural state of things either

you can blame the system but they're still old
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Old 4th May 2013, 04:31 PM   #93321  /  #20
MSG
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I'm sorry Jimmy.
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Old 4th May 2013, 05:03 PM   #93332  /  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG View Post
I really don't get the whole life extension thing. Many people I have known who were over 85, including my grandparents, felt lonely and useless and wanted out. And they were not well physically, and were largely either housebound or in care.

The biologists hypothesise that in traditional societies, those people who lived to old age (and of course most people didn't) were able to help their children with raising the next generation. But now more people are living past 70, & those people are living long enough to see the generation after that.

For what? After the GFC, a lot of people whose retirement savings were knocked around had to go back to work. The government is changing the rules so people can work until they are 70. While at the other end, out is getting very hard to get a job with decent pay if you haven't been in education until your mid 20s.

Why do we want to live so long and spend our old age with nothing to do?
Yeah well it's hardly like "retirement schemes" are part of the natural state of things. No wonder the old are miserable when they've been skanked by a system which turns around when they're old and says 'fooled ya!'.
yabbut living to 80 or 90 isn't part of the natural state of things either

you can blame the system but they're still old
If they're alive then it's natural.

Economies are just constructs. Living beings, not.
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Old 4th May 2013, 07:59 PM   #93342  /  #22
borealis
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Originally Posted by MSG View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG View Post
I really don't get the whole life extension thing. Many people I have known who were over 85, including my grandparents, felt lonely and useless and wanted out. And they were not well physically, and were largely either housebound or in care.

The biologists hypothesise that in traditional societies, those people who lived to old age (and of course most people didn't) were able to help their children with raising the next generation. But now more people are living past 70, & those people are living long enough to see the generation after that.

For what? After the GFC, a lot of people whose retirement savings were knocked around had to go back to work. The government is changing the rules so people can work until they are 70. While at the other end, out is getting very hard to get a job with decent pay if you haven't been in education until your mid 20s.

Why do we want to live so long and spend our old age with nothing to do?
Yeah well it's hardly like "retirement schemes" are part of the natural state of things. No wonder the old are miserable when they've been skanked by a system which turns around when they're old and says 'fooled ya!'.
yabbut living to 80 or 90 isn't part of the natural state of things either

you can blame the system but they're still old
I have to tell you guys, most of the old ladies in their 80s (I know quite a few - and a couple in their 90s) who I know are pretty happy and busy. They don't have much cash but they are keenly interested in life, have active social lives, and most of them have attentive family nearby. Of course, these are the lucky ones who aren't subject to crippling mental disfunction, but they seem to be the majority. The fact that they are all rural women and living in their own homes may make a huge difference.
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Old 4th May 2013, 08:14 PM   #93343  /  #23
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You should have seen my 82 year old gran dance at my wedding. She lasted another decade or so after that, last time I saw her was about two years before she died, still full of beans.
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Old 4th May 2013, 08:19 PM   #93344  /  #24
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Exactly. Too many people have this idea that elderly people are all miserable and useless.

I'm sorry, but I do have a cat pic that expresses my personal feelings about death. Not that I'm anxious about it, but I think I shouldn't have to participate, dammit.

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Old 4th May 2013, 08:43 PM   #93349  /  #25
Requiem
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Have you listened to the lyrics on that Cate Ferris track?
"There is nothing like this, over in a flash... this is not a trial run...
...Just one life, blaze bright"
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