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Old 22nd October 2018, 04:13 AM   #439337  /  #76
Zeluvia
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Evil Duckess

The problem with this rebuttal is that it doesn't matter how the fluoride was ingested, that was not the focus of the study.



The study looked at the levels of fluoride in the URINE of pregnant women, not at where or how they ingested it.


But even more interesting is this:


Quote:

This study was supported by the U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH; grants R01ES021446 and R01-ES007821); the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences/the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (NIEHS/EPA; grant P01ES022844), the NIEHS (grant P42-ES05947 and NIEHS Center Grant P30ES017885), and by the National Institute of Public Health/Ministry of Health of Mexico. The American British Cowdray Hospital provided facilities used for this research. The contents of this article are solely the responsibility of the authors and do not necessarily represent the official views of the NIEHS, NIH, or the U.S. EPA. David Bellinger collaborated on the design and execution of this studys cognitive testing.
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Old 22nd October 2018, 04:16 AM   #439338  /  #77
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Evil Duckess
If you read the study, and then read the rebuttal, the rebuttal looks really lame,


The authors of the study stressed the point their study was looking at individual fluoride levels and not guesstimating ingested amounts from all sources. They also concluded more research was needed to arrive at safe targets of fluoride, and from the list of the organizations that funded the study, that is a question a lot of people want answers to.


Anyone accepting fluoridated drinking water as "settled science" is old and grey and bent and lame : )





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Old 22nd October 2018, 06:24 AM   #439346  /  #78
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Zel, I love you with all my heart, but in all honesty, your track record on reporting evidence that I understand in great depth doesn't fill me with confidence in your ability to interpret evidence that I don't understand so well.
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Old 22nd October 2018, 06:52 AM   #439348  /  #79
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But... what's the real problem, if it is accepted that, after 70 years of study, it is shown that fluoridation is safe and effective? in drinking water.
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Old 22nd October 2018, 07:00 AM   #439350  /  #80
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http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/cons...s/default.aspx
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Old 22nd October 2018, 07:07 AM   #439352  /  #81
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the thing is, the reason why their are additives to such substances as grain, is because, when we refine them, we take out the important parts of them.. and then have to substitute by adding added vitamins & minerals.
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Old 22nd October 2018, 07:23 AM   #439353  /  #82
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... I know all about folic acid, at this point.

also, milk and OJ are fortified with calcium & vitamin D, nowadays - to ensure that we get both mineral & vitamin to prevent bone decay/osteoporosis (since they work together..)

I don't remember exactly why it was that milk and OJ were fortified specifically. Possibly because they are so prevalent in diet? I'm not sure.
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Old 22nd October 2018, 07:28 AM   #439354  /  #83
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sorry, it's just milk that is fortified with vit D, whereas, OJ is fortified with both calcium & vitamin D
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Old 22nd October 2018, 09:22 PM   #439382  /  #84
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Evil Duckess
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG View Post
Zel, I love you with all my heart, but in all honesty, your track record on reporting evidence that I understand in great depth doesn't fill me with confidence in your ability to interpret evidence that I don't understand so well.

Aww I like you too.


I admit, I don't do chemistry. I was stoned for most of that class. Right now I am trying to figure out what form of fluoride is actually in tea.

But that doesn't mean I can't understand the parameters of a study. And if a study says that it is using actual measurements of a substance from individual participants, then a rebuttal that comments on the sources of that substance is, in your words, bullshit.


I consider fluoride to be more on par with lead than with a vitamin or mineral we actually know we need. And I don't argue it's usefulness when it comes to teeth, at least I agree the SCIENCE says that fluoride ions in the saliva at high enough concentrations does help remineralize teeth and fluoride in dental plaque at high enough concentrations does kill bacteria.


I disagree with it's delivery method. To me, air and water should be sacrosanct.

https://scienceprogress.org/2008/10/...ad-regulation


And I think the fact people are trying to figure out exactly how much fluoride is too much or too little is a good damn thing.
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Old 22nd October 2018, 09:47 PM   #439383  /  #85
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No I don't think so
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Old 22nd October 2018, 10:34 PM   #439386  /  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantisdreamz View Post
But... what's the real problem, if it is accepted that, after 70 years of study, it is shown that fluoridation is safe and effective? in drinking water.
If it's so safe for 70 years, why did they just lower the recommended amount 2 years ago?



If it's so effective, why do countries that don't fluoridate report very similar reductions in cavities?


Because it's uncontrollable. You can't figure out the dosage because you don't know how much water different people drink. It's in everything we eat too, in small amounts. So all of a sudden, the US starts seeing fluoridosis.

And excess amounts don't always just piss away like Most vitamins. A lot is cleared by the kidneys, but if you have a Vitamin D deficiency, you are likely to take up more of it into your bones. (per studies on rats).

Now my Doctor has been bitching at me for a few years now because she said I was Vitamin D deficient. I told her I thought the whole Vitamin D thing was pretty much a fad, but I finally gave in and took the Vitamin D. Because bones.

Well, I got kidney stones. And calcium in my urine. So I quit taking the vitamin D. No more problems. Then I read another study that said the vitamin D levels they were considering as "normal" were overstated. Which means my Vitamin D was fine the whole fucking time. I was at 23ng/ml which is normal but for some reason she wanted me at 30.

But here is how that works in the US. Money and Medicare Fraud.

And No real science. Just a lot of studies that show Correlation. Which is not Causation.



https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/b...el-holick.html

https://www.vox.com/science-and-heal...foods-symptoms
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Old 23rd October 2018, 01:41 AM   #439397  /  #87
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Old 27th October 2018, 12:57 AM   #439589  /  #88
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So was the extra D correlation or causation for the kidney stone?
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Old 27th October 2018, 03:02 AM   #439607  /  #89
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Old 28th October 2018, 01:51 AM   #439655  /  #90
Zeluvia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmicronPersei8 View Post
So was the extra D correlation or causation for the kidney stone?

Causation for me, since I quit it, I have no more calcium crystals in my urine and no stones in my kidneys.


So on a personal level, the theory is proven.


= )


But she had me on some ridiculous doses. 15K IU pills once a week for six weeks, then 4kIU a day.


But then again, I routinely "forget" to take medication. So she probably figured I would forget most of it.
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Old 31st October 2018, 03:50 AM   #439798  /  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
Now my Doctor has been bitching at me for a few years now because she said I was Vitamin D deficient. I told her I thought the whole Vitamin D thing was pretty much a fad, but I finally gave in and took the Vitamin D. Because bones.

Well, I got kidney stones. And calcium in my urine. So I quit taking the vitamin D. No more problems. Then I read another study that said the vitamin D levels they were considering as "normal" were overstated. Which means my Vitamin D was fine the whole fucking time. I was at 23ng/ml which is normal but for some reason she wanted me at 30.
If that's what happened to you once you started taking it, and then the problems stopped, once you stopped taking it - I guess that is pretty fair to say it was unnecessary.

What did the doctor say when you told her about this?

I don't really like the whole getting caught up in specific numbers and readings that much.. I feel like it should be used as a guideline, but ya, in your case - if the levels were relatively fine, and you were not showing vit D deficiency, I don't really see the reason to hit the exact target number, either.

Were you showing vitamin D deficiency? Which I assume in long term is brittle bones. But in short term, like stress, fatigue?

My bf with CF gets herself really stressed out, because doctors will do all kinds of tests on her, and get very specific readings and numbers.. for lung function, for instance. This number can fluctuate quite a bit - and it's sort of been ingrained now, that if a number fluctuates just a little - it's a bad sign. But in the meantime, it might just be due to external factors at that moment in time, and actually next week, it might be shown to be better. I dislike seeing the stress involved over particulars like this. But at the same time, I know the numbers act as a guideline. It's just... as people, we get extremely focused on getting something right on target. Just adds stress, that in turn, isn't good for the health.

Not really sure where I'm going exactly with that example. But just to say, that I think people have a tendency to possibly get over focused. And so, your doc, for instance - had this target number in her mind, but maybe that blinded her, from reading things based on how you actually are, and how you feel instead.


I've heard kidney stones are almost worse than child birth, btw
...if not worse
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Old 5th November 2018, 08:20 AM   #439961  /  #92
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Quote:
My bf with CF gets herself really stressed out, because doctors will do all kinds of tests on her, and get very specific readings and numbers.. for lung function, for instance. This number can fluctuate quite a bit - and it's sort of been ingrained now, that if a number fluctuates just a little - it's a bad sign. But in the meantime, it might just be due to external factors at that moment in time, and actually next week, it might be shown to be better. I dislike seeing the stress involved over particulars like this. But at the same time, I know the numbers act as a guideline. It's just... as people, we get extremely focused on getting something right on target. Just adds stress, that in turn, isn't good for the health.
She just went this past week for a full weeks worth of testing to see if she would be eligible for a double lung transplant. Tests included a bunch of invasive stuff and blood work, with needles the size of a small.. worm. At one point she started having a panic attack while the nurses asked her to blow into a machine to test her oxygen levels. I was told the nurses really didnt pay much attention to the fact she was hyper ventilating. Business as usually for them. There was one test where she had to step inside a machine that lowered oxygen levels and she was asked to "pant" then breathe normally. While she was freaking out already. Spoke to her after all this and she was still unnerved. Was told she would get the results back in one months time... on whether she "passed" and was eligible for lung transplant. You know.. a transplant that would save her life. CF has a low life expectancy. So .. no pressure.. >.>
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