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Old 12th January 2020, 09:18 PM   #455505  /  #51
borealis
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Disillusionment can also come from the failure of the theories' predictions. Q had predicted Republican success in the 2018 US midterm elections, and claimed that Attorney General Jeff Sessions was involved in secret work for Trump, with apparent tensions between them a cover. When Democrats made significant gains and Trump fired Sessions, there was disillusionment among many in the Q community.[63][64] Further disillusionment came when the predicted December 5 mass arrest and imprisonment in Guantanamo Bay detention camp of enemies of Donald Trump did not occur, nor did the dismissal of charges against Trump's former National Security Advisor, Michael Flynn. For some these failures began the process of separation from the QAnon cult, while others urged direct action in the form of an insurrection against the government. Such a response to a failed prophecy is not unusual: apocalyptic cults such as Heaven's Gate, the People's Temple, the Manson Family, and Aum Shinrikyo resorted to mass suicide or mass murder when their expectations for revelations or the fulfillment of their prophecies did not come about. Psychologist Robert Lifton calls it "forcing the end". This phenomenon is being seen among some QAnon believers.[62] Travis View echoes the concern that disillusioned QAnon believers might take matters into their own hands,[24] as Pizzagate believer Edgar Maddison Welch did in 2016, Matthew Phillip Wright did at Hoover Dam in 2018, and Anthony Comello did in 2019 when he murdered Mafia boss Frank Cali, believing himself to be under the protection of President Trump.
Prominent QAnon follower Liz Crokin, who in 2018 asserted that John F. Kennedy Jr. faked his death and is now Q,[65] stated in February 2019 that she was losing patience in Trump to arrest the supposed members of the child sex ring, suggesting that the time was approaching for "vigilante justice."[66] Other QAnon followers have adopted the Kennedy theory, asserting that a Pittsburgh man named Vincent Fusca is Kennedy in disguise and would be Trump's 2020 running mate. Some attended 2019 Independence Day celebrations in Washington expecting Kennedy to appear.[67][68]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon#Identity_of_"Q"



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon#Identity_of_"Q"
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Old 12th January 2020, 09:23 PM   #455506  /  #52
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yeah, he keeps repeating "People are Stupid" and calling them sheep. Dead Giveaway its a Troll.


Wonder what Jerome has been up too lately?


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Old 12th January 2020, 09:27 PM   #455507  /  #53
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Old 12th January 2020, 09:31 PM   #455508  /  #54
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Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
Cunt, that is a link to a site that lists all the Q posts from the very beginning. It's an archive. I have no idea why you think that isn't what it says it is?


https://qposts.online


Go to the bottom and click on the little i.


You can Also go to the Calendar on the bottom, and back up to the first post back in Oct 2017 when it was on the 4chan board, and see the original posts, and the board and subsection 4chan/politics where they were posted. It's the same for all the others, it shows the board, subboard, and what ID the poster was using at the time. Those ARE the Qanon posts. You can cross verify it any way you want. I am satisfied that site represents the real Qanon posts, having cross verified it with other articles and links.



Talk about sticking your head in the sand. And being fucking lazy. It is getting pretty clear to me you have some kind of emotional investment in Q theories and you don't want to jeopardize your investment by actually looking at any Facts.


I don't know about you, but going back and reading the original material makes more sense to me than reading other people's thoughts and opinions ABOUT the original material.

That other site is a troll site. Started in 2016, it makes up stories and sends them out on Facebook, and then laughs at people who believe them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...fed_story.html


After reading much of the Q original posts in the more convenient archive format, I concluded it was a troll game.



I challenge you to do the same, or shut up about Q, since you refuse to consider the original material.
It might be the original material reposted fairly, but that doesn't tell me which piece is your convincing evidence that this isn't posted from within the white house.

As to challenging me to read many of them - I have. What unconvinced you, did not unconvince me (of that one fact I'm trying to carve out)

See, once I know whether it is from within the white house, or PRETENDING to be from within the white house, that will change the value of the posts.

It is either a republican news outlet (so equivalent to DNC releases and leaks) or it is pretending to be one (for what reason?)

Anyway, which of his posts convinces you that it is a troll game? Let's focus on that, instead of your broad claim (repeated) that it is 'evident'.

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Originally Posted by Imp View Post
QAnon as in the guy who thinks Trump is a secret genius vigilante fighting against a global sex trafficking ring?

Dude didn't so much jump the shark as eat the fucking thing and serve it to you second hand. And you're still dumb enough to gobble that shit up.
As to the 'global sex trafficking ring', would Epstein, the royal family and the Clintons connected by the 'lolita express' count? Or does that all fail q's (hyperbolic) description?

I'm focused on one bite, and assessing the value of that bite.

No-one seems to be enlightening on whether this is from within the Trump whitehouse or not.

Can you?

The rest of the claims show the usual dem/rep differences (for instance, the dems call Epstein a creep who uses teens, the reps call him a pedophile trafficker)

Anyway, I think it makes a difference where these posts are coming from.

Do you?
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Old 12th January 2020, 09:32 PM   #455509  /  #55
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dude, I give up.


The fact that you want to "focus" on one thing, and ignore all the others means you aren't even serious about evaluating Q as a source for information. Either his information is GOOD or it isn't.


You just want to confirm what you already believe.
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Old 12th January 2020, 09:36 PM   #455510  /  #56
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Now look what you did. Shame on you.
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Old 12th January 2020, 09:37 PM   #455511  /  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
Quote:
Disillusionment can also come from the failure of the theories' predictions. Q had predicted Republican success in the 2018 US midterm elections, and claimed that Attorney General Jeff Sessions was involved in secret work for Trump, with apparent tensions between them a cover. When Democrats made significant gains and Trump fired Sessions, there was disillusionment among many in the Q community.[63][64] Further disillusionment came when the predicted December 5 mass arrest and imprisonment in Guantanamo Bay detention camp of enemies of Donald Trump did not occur, nor did the dismissal of charges against Trump's former National Security Advisor, Michael Flynn. For some these failures began the process of separation from the QAnon cult, while others urged direct action in the form of an insurrection against the government. Such a response to a failed prophecy is not unusual: apocalyptic cults such as Heaven's Gate, the People's Temple, the Manson Family, and Aum Shinrikyo resorted to mass suicide or mass murder when their expectations for revelations or the fulfillment of their prophecies did not come about. Psychologist Robert Lifton calls it "forcing the end". This phenomenon is being seen among some QAnon believers.[62] Travis View echoes the concern that disillusioned QAnon believers might take matters into their own hands,[24] as Pizzagate believer Edgar Maddison Welch did in 2016, Matthew Phillip Wright did at Hoover Dam in 2018, and Anthony Comello did in 2019 when he murdered Mafia boss Frank Cali, believing himself to be under the protection of President Trump.
Prominent QAnon follower Liz Crokin, who in 2018 asserted that John F. Kennedy Jr. faked his death and is now Q,[65] stated in February 2019 that she was losing patience in Trump to arrest the supposed members of the child sex ring, suggesting that the time was approaching for "vigilante justice."[66] Other QAnon followers have adopted the Kennedy theory, asserting that a Pittsburgh man named Vincent Fusca is Kennedy in disguise and would be Trump's 2020 running mate. Some attended 2019 Independence Day celebrations in Washington expecting Kennedy to appear.[67][68]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon#Identity_of_"Q"



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon#Identity_of_"Q"
I haven't been 'let down' by any 'failed prophecies', so those details you mention don't convince me either way, on the source being from within, or outside the white house.

You can keep looking at anything you want, but these points don't answer that first question.

Do you think it is important?
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Old 12th January 2020, 09:43 PM   #455512  /  #58
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Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
dude, I give up.


The fact that you want to "focus" on one thing, and ignore all the others means you aren't even serious about evaluating Q as a source for information. Either his information is GOOD or it isn't.


You just want to confirm what you already believe.
Some of the information is good, some seems not to be.

Because of this, I want to find a SOLID answer to whether or not this stuff is coming from the white house.

Don't you think that is an important question to settle BEFORE evaluating the info? I mean, we can all count the huge number of sealed indictments, but that doesn't say who they are for...

My (clumsy) theory has been this (for a couple years now):

Reps and Dems have both been accusing the other side of corruption, and DEMANDING INVESTIGATION.

Most investigators are willing, and skilled, so they investigate.

This should mean that all sides are found to be corrupt (it is a human thing, not a dems/reps thing) so those sealed indictments would be the right thing to expect, if a bunch of investigators were empowered to work hard on government.

I mean, Trumps taxes have been a subject of study for awhile now (almost as loudly as Obamas birth certificate) and yet there are politicians who work in the public sector for decades, get filthy rich, and aren't under as much scrutiny (Biden family, Pelosi family etc.)

Is it more suspicious when a rich person goes into politics? Or when a politician gets rich beyond their salary?
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Old 12th January 2020, 11:01 PM   #455515  /  #59
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Dude, tell me, how are you going to evaluate if it is coming from the White House?


My method was to read the posts, and evaluate the Truthiness of them, in general, not looking at one specific issue, but at the overall track record.



The amount of crap misinformation, obfuscation, posts with possible multiple interpretations left open to conjecture (probably deliberately) and outright WRONG stuff caused me to come to the conclusion it is impossible that this is coming from the White House.



Your method seems to be to pick one subject that you seem to agree with Q on, then ignore everything else, and just to keep repeating that the information needs to be Evaluated, while handwaving away anything that doesn't fit the narrative you want to tell, changing goal posts, and jumping from one crackpot theory to the next.


Seriously, this isn't a discussion. It's you putting your head in the sand and shaking your ass all about!




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Old 12th January 2020, 11:32 PM   #455516  /  #60
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Old 12th January 2020, 11:53 PM   #455517  /  #61
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Old 12th January 2020, 11:55 PM   #455518  /  #62
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Old 13th January 2020, 12:22 AM   #455519  /  #63
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Old 13th January 2020, 12:35 AM   #455520  /  #64
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Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
Dude, tell me, how are you going to evaluate if it is coming from the White House?
As Republican party 'quality' of information.

If it is a troll, then it is probably a bit trickier to spot why it is lying to whom.
Quote:
My method was to read the posts, and evaluate the Truthiness of them, in general, not looking at one specific issue, but at the overall track record.



The amount of crap misinformation, obfuscation, posts with possible multiple interpretations left open to conjecture (probably deliberately)
Certainly deliberately.
Quote:
and outright WRONG stuff caused me to come to the conclusion it is impossible that this is coming from the White House.
You didn't say what was wrong, but I understand you not wanting to dance off into the weeds.

Did you notice how q confirmed their identity to 8kun, iafter the board migration?

If you are so sure of it not coming from the white house...I don't know what to tell you...do you trust the 'anonymous government sources' often cited in newscasts?
[quote]
Quote:
Your method seems to be to pick one subject that you seem to agree with Q on, then ignore everything else, and just to keep repeating that the information needs to be Evaluated, while handwaving away anything that doesn't fit the narrative you want to tell, changing goal posts, and jumping from one crackpot theory to the next.


Seriously, this isn't a discussion. It's you putting your head in the sand and shaking your ass all about!
I still don't know how, after the 8kun identity proof offered, (along with other such coordinations) you can be so sure it isn't from the White House.

Quote:
WRONG stuff caused me to come to the conclusion it is impossible that this is coming from the White House.
Wait - are you honestly suggesting that the Trump White House couldn't publish anything that was 'WRONG stuff'?

I'm not sure I understand your train of thought here.
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Old 13th January 2020, 08:02 PM   #455537  /  #65
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Anyway, Z, agreeing about that isn't all that important. I still find your thoughts interesting when you focus on finance matters.

Our disagreement in a nutshell:
Quote:
q is in the white house
Quote:
no
I think we can agree on that, and I honestly thank you for it. I'll treasure it.

But I want to be honest with you about the source of this question, so I'm glad you looked into it. This question is uncomfortable for me, honestly because of my ignorance.

How is foreign aid accounted for, once it is out of the country?

When I take funding from a government (mine), I am held accountable in public and clear ways, for my use of it.

I don't know how to even start to examine it with regards to foreign aid.
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Old 13th January 2020, 10:34 PM   #455546  /  #66
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It's complicated, and has changed over the years. But one aspect of it might really interest you, and that is defense foreign aid.


Now, for example, we give Israel foreign aid money for defense. (Several other countries too). These countries turn around and buy military equipment from military contractors.



They usually buy from US contractors. It's a kind of corporate welfare in a way.


Overall though, we don't give much in foreign aid. Much of the money does find it's way back to the US economy. For example if we give Food Money for foreign aid, it usually buys Food from the US. Same for medicine, and other programs. Infrastructure projects such as clean water and energy usually use US contractors, but not always.


We used to be much worse at it, and it could be abused by the leaders of the country, but we have tightened up on that quite a bit. We give targeted aid now, not just general, and have made the giving of money very specific.
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Old 13th January 2020, 10:47 PM   #455548  /  #67
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It's complicated, and has changed over the years. But one aspect of it might really interest you, and that is defense foreign aid.


Now, for example, we give Israel foreign aid money for defense. (Several other countries too). These countries turn around and buy military equipment from military contractors.



They usually buy from US contractors. It's a kind of corporate welfare in a way.


Overall though, we don't give much in foreign aid. Much of the money does find it's way back to the US economy. For example if we give Food Money for foreign aid, it usually buys Food from the US. Same for medicine, and other programs. Infrastructure projects such as clean water and energy usually use US contractors, but not always.


We used to be much worse at it, and it could be abused by the leaders of the country, but we have tightened up on that quite a bit. We give targeted aid now, not just general, and have made the giving of money very specific.
The suggestion seems to be (vague, as I pointed out - deliberately) that Biden made a shady deal in Ukraine (and China?) which had foreign aid go back to the US through not-obvious channels. Except his son, which WAS a bit obvious.

I don't know how tight it is now vs the past, but it hit me because when at home, I think they should identify every 'welfare' dollar, and ensure it is being used well, but when we give money to a third world country, it's automatically considered 'well-spent'.

This Biden thing will come out (his baby-mama has ordered his financials for the last few years) and might end up being a 'true corruption' story.

My problem with the way q is going is based on my assumption that it is 'inside the white house / republican'

See, if they know what is coming, they can 'clean house' a lot, so that when these huge pile of sealed indictments are released, the Republican party comes out looking like it had a lot less corruption in it.

Of course, if the rumours of sealed indictments, the deliberate mis-spellings of names in government forms (to foil FOIA ?) and the rest of it turns out to be NOT coming from inside the white house, it is a different kind of concern I guess.

The foreign aid stuff is really interesting though. Why give money to Israel? Is it a destitute country in need of support? Or is it more of a 'show of support'?

As I said, my main 'sting' out of this, was realizing that I don't think of accountability for government funding beyond our borders, when SURELY we are sending real money out to the world.

If we can get better accountability on some of this, my guess is that it will be shown by a bunch of busts around foreign aid corruption. (meaning I don't think the corrupt would 'go quietly
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Old 14th January 2020, 11:36 AM   #455556  /  #68
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We screwed up with foreign aid in the past. Badly. But there is much more accountability now than ever. And like I said, it is more a tool for US corporations to get their hands on US taxpayer dollars now than it is a source for corruption overseas.




When Henry Kissinger was Nixon's Secretary of State he developed what he called his three point program, to develop the nations of the Philippines, Nicaragua, and Iran to promote capitalism and democracy in the world and help stop the spread of communism. As part of this program, foreign aid poured into those countries, and most of it was involved in creating corruption and buying Shoes for Imelda Marcos.



Since those three spectacular failures the policies on foreign aid and accountability changed dramatically.


We send Israel money because Israel has a powerful lobby in the US that donates fucktons of money to congressional and presidential candidates. We allow no other foreign country to do this, and they exploit a very fine loophole in the law.



https://www.aipac.org
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Old 14th January 2020, 11:41 AM   #455557  /  #69
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Foreign aid doesn't figure into the Burisma Ukraine mess btw. Burisma's "corruption" had to do with illegally obtaining extraction licenses for oil and natural gas, money laundering, tax evasion, and bribery to officials to avoid investigations for the above.


The UK launched an investigation into Burisma for money laundering in April 2014, the same month that Hunter Biden joined the board of Burisma. The original problem was that the owner of Burisma, Mykola Zlochevsky, was also the Minister of Natural Resources under Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, who was ousted in Feb 2014 and is still in hiding in Russia.



It is quite a complicated story. You should read up on it. Paul Manafort actually worked for Yanukovych from 2004 to 2010.


At the core of the mess is oil and natural gas : ).
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Old 14th January 2020, 04:49 PM   #455559  /  #70
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It is quite a complicated story. You should read up on it. Paul Manafort actually worked for Yanukovych from 2004 to 2010.


At the core of the mess is oil and natural gas : ).
It is complicated. They show a video of Biden the Sr. bragging that he held Ukraine's feet to the fire, forcing them to get rid of an investigator or they wouldn't get their aid.

It seemed surreal - and more than a little illegal (since it was shown in the light of the impeachment hearings)

What makes more sense to me is that Biden was BRAGGING about being hard on Ukraine, and getting them to be 'just' before releasing money. (else why would a politician brag on TV?)

To show how tough he was being, in carrying out his duty.

But with Biden the Jr. getting HUGE payouts, and other politician kids being allegedly involved in similar things, it remains to play out.

The q view on it is that all those 'Politicians Jr.' (Biden, Pelosi, Clinton) are being used to funnel ill-gotten gains back to the families.

We'll see, but we'll see what the winners WANT us to see. If the Dems win, I expect a lot of Republican corruption will be exposed, and vice-versa.

I think a better read on things will be available through a wider lens. (watching world reaction to whatever corruption comes out) but will take a lot longer.

As I pointed out earlier - with all the corruption being exposed, it doesn't surprise me that either side is intent on making it look like it was the 'other guys' who did it. All that tends to sound bullshitty...

So what is your suggestion for that 'wider view'? It can't be as simple as 'believe the democrats' or 'believe the republicans', but THAT will be the pitch (depending who 'wins' )

How does that go again...history is written by...

I'm content to keep things simple. The bigger the organization, the more likely it is fucked.
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Old 14th January 2020, 09:31 PM   #455560  /  #71
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There is a bigger picture here. Some people think that the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine was assisted by the USA.


The USA and Europe supposedly did not want a Pro-Russia government in the Ukraine.
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Old 14th January 2020, 10:16 PM   #455561  /  #72
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There is a bigger picture here. Some people think that the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine was assisted by the USA.


The USA and Europe supposedly did not want a Pro-Russia government in the Ukraine.
I think the US has adversaries (enemies?) ranked like so...
China
Somethingcomplicatedandweirdinthemiddleeastwhichco uldbeanyoneandeveryone
Russia

I really think they are high on the list (or higher). This suggests to me that overall, the official 'USA' would prefer to NOT have Ukraine join Russia. (in most ways)

Seems that the US is pretty friendly with everyone, on the surface (they COULD smash any other military) but in secret, they do things that are unexpected.

It seems it is easier to be proud of things one does publicly, and at risk of public censure...
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Old 15th January 2020, 01:55 PM   #455566  /  #73
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No, you still don't get it. The Ukraine was one of the founding states of the USSR. Russia gave the Crimea to the Ukraine in 1954. Ukraine declared it's independence from the USSR in 1991.


Now at issue is Natural Gas, which Europe uses for energy. Russia and the Ukraine are both Natural Gas producers, and so is Israel and the US. Russia was for a long time the major seller of Natural Gas to Europe, but the US wanted part of that market.


This is why Burisma was a problem. It's very likely that Biden's son was put on the board to keep an eye on Burisma, since it's owner was a part of the Pro-Russia government.



It's also likely that the reason Joe wanted the prosecutor removed was not to protect his son, but to quell any investigations into CIA involvement in the election that ousted the Pro Russian government. Google Orange Revolution.


Bigger Picture. History.
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Old 15th January 2020, 03:09 PM   #455568  /  #74
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Yikes:

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...-s-ambassador

The relevant texts are in more readable format towards the end of this Vox article:

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/202...mpression=true
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Old 15th January 2020, 05:00 PM   #455569  /  #75
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
No, you still don't get it. The Ukraine was one of the founding states of the USSR. Russia gave the Crimea to the Ukra ine in 1954. Ukraine declared it's independence from the USSR in 1991.
You're right - I DON'T get it.

Thanks for trying. I read the Wikipedia about it. Still clear as mud.
Quote:
Now at issue is Natural Gas, which Europe uses for energy. Russia and the Ukraine are both Natural Gas producers, and so is Israel and the US. Russia was for a long time the major seller of Natural Gas to Europe, but the US wanted part of that market.
I do remember Trump being cranky because, while Germany was taking US defense help against Russia, they were also giving Russia YUGE piles of money (for fuel) and Trump didn't like that part. Made sense to me that he would find that undesireable.
Quote:


This is why Burisma was a problem. It's very likely that Biden's son was put on the board to keep an eye on Burisma, since it's owner was a part of the Pro-Russia government.
Put on by CIA? Burisma?

Burisma was paying him handsomely, so if the CIA really put him there, that's a funny coincidence.
Quote:
It's also likely that the reason Joe wanted the prosecutor removed was not to protect his son, but to quell any investigations into CIA involvement in the election that ousted the Pro Russian government. Google Orange Revolution.
That would clash pretty directly with Sr.'s claims that he didn't talk business with his son (and fit with the golfing photo of Sr., Jr. and some Burisma exec.)

If he lies about that, should he be treated like Flynn? Or like a politician who said vague, misdirecting things?

If the CIA has secrets to hide, fuck them. Blow it open. Creepy bastards.

Quote:


Bigger Picture. History.
Bigger Picture is always enlightening. Don't always have it, but it's always pretty easy to see that a politician like Biden who's son gets filthy rich in a job they aren't in any way qualified for, is fucking corruption. It might be the CIA doing patriotic corruption, or it might just be a doting father wearing a blind spot around his sons corruption, but it's pretty clear something isn't right.

I keep finding that people want to blame Trump because he IS rich, but don't want to blame the politicians who inexplicably become rich at the public trough...

Didn't Obama give a giant contract to Pearson for their work on 'common core', then (not suspiciously at ALL) got a BIG juicy payout by the same publishing company for his book?

I mean, he got rich writing a book, right? It's not like he went from the presidency to buying a multimillion dollar beachfront property...It's not like he got rich being in a political position.

If someone can get that rich off a few years in the Presidency, and still have the love of the people, imagine how rich someone could get with DECADES in the higher levels of government! Is Pelosi rich? Is her wealth because of strong personal financial stewardship? Or because she is on the take?

Is there any suspicion at all? How about Biden Jr. getting paid HUGELY for...what? Spying for CIA? (does it pay THAT well?) Or was that pay coming from the 'crooks' at Burisma, and did it go directly into CIA coffers? Or Biden Family Property?

Biden is not just connected to Ukraine and Burisma. There is supposed to be some coming connection to China as well...and yeah, I don't understand THAT either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
Yikes:

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...-s-ambassador

The relevant texts are in more readable format towards the end of this Vox article:

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/202...mpression=true
I'm not sure what the problem is...if he wanted her dead, why do you suppose he failed to have that carried out?

If he wanted her investigated - that isn't really a problem that I can see.

I mean, alphabet agencies have admitted to spying on Trump based on shit information, and THEY didn't get in trouble for it...

With this senior government official, the 'worst' (for Trump) happened, and she came back to testify against him.

I did see what she had to say. It sounded like a bunch of nothing, motivated to ruin Trump.

A wet firecracker in Act 1 of the impeachment theatre.

I guess now that it will be a REAL trial, with cross-examination and more significant witnesses, we'll find out if there was anything to it. (unless it gets dismissed due to being stupid)

It looks, however, like she is pretty safe.

How is Julian Assange doing by comparison? He is also guilty of 'saying things' bothersome to those in power...things could have gone a lot worse for her. The fact that they didn't is a good sign.

She could have been 'Snowden'ed' as well, if she said things the government didn't like...is she in hiding? In a foreign prison?

Or is she looking healthy, comfortable and well-fed?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG View Post
zel, would you consider not enabling the shitting up of our forum by engaging in these conversations?

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