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Old 23rd March 2017, 08:34 AM   #390100  /  #1651
nostrum
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What say we run a book on when Jerome will stop trolling, or posting, at MR
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Old 23rd March 2017, 12:37 PM   #390107  /  #1652
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let me simplify that for you
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What say we stop posting at MR
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Old 23rd March 2017, 12:52 PM   #390108  /  #1653
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Old 23rd March 2017, 03:47 PM   #390114  /  #1654
Brother Daniel
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post
In fact, perspective offers one of the easiest ways of showing that the earth is round.
Go on then.
Consider the angular diameter of the sun as viewed from anywhere on the earth.

In the diagram, the point at the right represents the position of the viewer. The ball at the left represents the sun (or any other round thing in the distance). The two lines represent two lines of sight, one of them to one point on the apparent “edge” of the sun (or other round thing), and the other to the opposite point. The angle between those points is the “angular diameter” of the object in question. Got that so far?

I’ve drawn the diagram to show an angular diameter of nearly 15 degrees. But the sun’s angular diameter, as viewed from the earth, is of course much less than that. It’s actually only about half a degree. The important thing is that this angular diameter can be measured very precisely.

The angular diameter tells you something about the relationship between the object’s size and its distance from the viewer. Given the angular diameter, if you make an assumption about the size, you can find the distance. Alternatively, if you make an assumption about the distance, you can find the size.

The actual math here involves trigonometry, which is far too advanced for any flat-earther. But have no fear: The sun’s angular diameter is small enough that we can use a small-angle approximation.

Angular diameter in radians ≈ actual diameter / distance to viewer.

or

Angular diameter in degrees ≈ (180 / pi) (actual diameter / distance to viewer).

When you’re dealing with an angular diameter in the ballpark of half a degree, this approximation is good to within about one thousandth of one percent. (It gets even better as you deal with even smaller angles.)

So the angular diameter of the sun is inversely proportional to the distance between the sun and the viewer.

And this angular diameter changes very little over the course of a day. That immediately debunks your model, in which the distance to the sun varies greatly over the course of a day. In your model, the sun has to be something like 4400 miles from me at noon near the equinox, and 6200 miles from me four hours later. So its angular diameter should decrease by about 30% in that time – more than enough to be noticeable. (1/6200 is about 70% of 1/4400.)

These big swings in distance are simply not what we observe. The angular diameter of the sun stays constant over the course of the day, to within one percent of one percent. And it’s the same (again within one percent of one percent) no matter where on earth it’s measured from.

It follows immediately – from this simple observation – that distances between different points on the earth are always a tiny fraction of the distance to the sun. In other words, the distance to the sun is MUCH greater than the size of the earth.

And yet, the sun's elevation angle (i.e., how far it is above the horizon) is different in different places on the earth at the same time. Given the huge distance to the sun, these observations can only work with a round earth.

This much was figured out thousands of years ago, and indeed is obvious to anyone who isn’t completely hopeless at geometry.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 03:54 PM   #390116  /  #1655
Jerome
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Angular diameter here assumes a known distance.

Fail.

You can not use assumptions to prove assumptions.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 03:55 PM   #390117  /  #1656
Brother Daniel
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No, angular diameter is measureable.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 03:57 PM   #390119  /  #1657
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PH, Carl there is exposing himself, and laughing at those who are stuck in his bamboozle.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 03:59 PM   #390120  /  #1658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post
No, angular diameter is measureable.
But you have to assume a size to get a distance, or assume a distance to get a size.



Using the size assumption to prove the distance, then using the distance assumption to prove the size, this is not science.

Assumptions can't prove assumptions, which is what all cosmology is.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 04:02 PM   #390121  /  #1659
Jerome
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Your calculations also assume no effect from the various degrees of clarity in the atmosphere.

Its as if the below phenomenon does not exist in your world.

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Old 23rd March 2017, 04:04 PM   #390122  /  #1660
Brother Daniel
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Using the size assumption to prove the distance, then using the distance assumption to prove the size, this is not science.
That's not what I did. You're (as usual) not reading for comprehension.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 04:10 PM   #390123  /  #1661
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Your calculations also assume no effect from the various degrees of clarity in the atmosphere.
Nope. You're flailing.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 05:12 PM   #390125  /  #1662
Jerome
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You can't tell distance or size because of perspective.

Your calculations need assumptions, thus show us nothing without knowing actual size and/or distance.

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Old 23rd March 2017, 05:48 PM   #390127  /  #1663
Brother Daniel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
You can't tell distance or size because of perspective.
Not from a single measurement, that's true. But when you measure the angular diameter of the same object as viewed from several different places at the same time, that is sometimes enough to figure it out.

We know distances between different places on the earth, at least roughly.

We know that the angular diameter of the sun is almost exactly the same regardless of what point on the earth it's viewed from.

If the sun were close by, those measurements would yield greatly different values for the angular diameter. But they don't.

It follows, directly from these observations, that the distance to the sun is huge.

Exactly how huge can't be determined from this much information alone. From what I've said so far, it could be 10 million miles away, or 100 million, or 1 billion, or much more. (And all of these different distances would lead to different conclusions about its size.) But whatever it is, it's much greater than the size of the earth.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 05:55 PM   #390131  /  #1664
Jerome
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post

We know distances between different places on the earth, at least roughly.
Yes, but here your assumption is a curved surface.

Again, assumptions can't prove other assumptions, at least in real science.

Btw, how long do you think it takes for the earth to complete one revolution on its axis?
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Old 23rd March 2017, 05:57 PM   #390132  /  #1665
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Alot of book running talk from nos lately
She found out being a bookie actually involves a lot of exciting spreadsheet formulas.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 06:07 PM   #390133  /  #1666
Brother Daniel
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Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post
We know distances between different places on the earth, at least roughly.
Yes, but here your assumption is a curved surface.
Nope. I made no such assumption. You're grasping at straws.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome
Btw, how long do you think it takes for the earth to complete one revolution on its axis?
Do you mean rotation? The word "revolution", when talking about the earth, refers properly to its trip around the sun.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 06:29 PM   #390134  /  #1667
Jerome
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Wait, you think there is no difference between two points on a sphere and two points on a plane?

The earth is revolving on its axis, but whatever, yes, how long does it take?
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Old 23rd March 2017, 06:48 PM   #390137  /  #1668
Brother Daniel
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Wait, you think there is no difference between two points on a sphere and two points on a plane?
No, you're making that up. The point is, it doesn't affect my argument at all, whether you imagine that (e.g.) Carlsson and I are 3300 miles apart (straight line through a round earth) or 3500 miles apart (along the surface of a flat earth). Either way, the sun is much farther away from either of us than we are apart from each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome
The earth is revolving on its axis, but whatever, yes, how long does it take?
Again, the right word is rotating, not revolving.

To rotate a full 360 degrees, it takes about 23 hours, 56 minutes, 4 seconds.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 06:51 PM   #390138  /  #1669
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TagBroD owns this gay globe
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Old 23rd March 2017, 07:04 PM   #390140  /  #1670
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And so, little Billy, that's why they call them revolvers and not rotators.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 07:15 PM   #390144  /  #1671
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What about repeaters though
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Old 23rd March 2017, 07:25 PM   #390146  /  #1672
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re·volve
rəˈvälv/
verb
gerund or present participle: revolving
move in a circle on a central axis.



... and if you want to get more pedantic, rotate means to move in a circle, and the earth is said to move in an ellipse, which is an oval. So you are wrong with the standards you are trying to place on word usage here.


Of course it matters, because the two of you are on a curved surface, thus the angle you are viewing the object is different.

You are trying to use flat earth parameters to prove the size and distance of the sun, lol.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 07:26 PM   #390147  /  #1673
Jerome
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Btw, did you find the part in your calculation that takes into account the atmosphere?
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Old 23rd March 2017, 07:45 PM   #390148  /  #1674
Brother Daniel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome
because the two of you are on a curved surface
Ah, so you concede the whole shebang, then.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 07:52 PM   #390149  /  #1675
Jerome
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No, you are using assumptions to prove assumptions.

Its just like the fossils date the rocks, and the rocks date the fossils. Its nonsense, and certainly not close to real science. You live in a science fiction world which does not follow the rules established within the scientific method.
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