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Human Endeavour Includes thinking really hard...

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Old 28th April 2018, 08:33 PM   #427467  /  #1
Tristan
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Husbands and wives want something for themselves

A marriage is founded on the principles of sharing who you are with someone else, spending the rest of your life with each other, to grow old together. This is a direct quote from the lines spoken by Marina Sirtis in an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

I believe all three of these facets are true. Husband and wife live together to support one another, to make life more rewarding and exciting than if they stayed single and share their company with one another to bring new passion to their lives, to motivate each other to reach their goals and set new, better ones.

I would, however, like us to explore the concept of need in a marriage, on the behalf of both the man and the woman. A man asks for a woman's hand in marriage and a woman accepts because both feel that it's the right thing to do for themselves. I'd like to put foreward my ideas for you to evaluate, using commonly used phrases, or examples of wedding vows, to illustrate my point.

'Will you marry me?: the man thinks that if he weds this woman, she will enhance his life, bringing him more joy and fulfilment than he would've gotten had he chosen to remain single. The emphasis is on "me". He is not asking if the woman will choose someone else - he is specifically asking if she would like to be the one for him.

I'm the luckiest man alive: Without his new wife, the man wouldn't feel he is whole enough. He thinks he is very fortunate to have been worthy enough to be chosen by his girl. The fact that she said yes is proof that he has done enough to earn her respect and affection, thereby confirming that he is a valuable person, whereas before she accepted, he wasn't entirely convinced he'd done enough to earn her love. He may have believed he'd gotten to the point where he had, but getting the approval, the acceptance and the acknowledgement of his efforts from his intended makes it perfectly clear he did all the right things to take their relationship to the next level.

Yes: On the woman's part, she says yes because in her mind, this man can bring her a kind of peace and enrichment of the soul that on her own, she couldn't find. By herself, she hadn't reached full maturity or achieved spiritual success, but with a husband, she can do both to no end and be happier than she'd have been without him.

"I couldn't ask for a better man, best friend, father, and husband to spend the rest of my life with": the man she's chosen to be her husband will be able to offer her the most important things she seeks in life. He is someone she can share interests and father her children, because he has all the qualities she personally is looking for.

Therefore, men and women look for partners because they want to deepen their own spirits and make themselves more respectable in the eyes of their friends and family, for themsevles individually, as well as collectively. They get married because one will give the other something that will make each of them better human beings and make their souls shine brighter than they would have had they remained apart.

This is just my opinion. I could be mistaken.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Last edited by Tristan; 28th April 2018 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 28th April 2018, 08:50 PM   #427469  /  #2
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Perhaps. With reservations.

My husband said "Let's get married."

I think that's rather different than "Will you marry me?"

We already loved and respected each other. Both of us.

Why do you think the man and the woman have different reasons?

And many women and men do not ever marry, living fulfilled lives without the need of a partner.

In my family there has been a succession, through half a dozen generations at least, of women who never married. They have always been the childless matriarchal centres of their generations, having the time and often the wherewithal to teach independence and self-sufficiency especially to the next generation of daughters, as well as bestowing endless kindnesses around them.

My 92 year old aunt is the last fading avatar of that tradition, and I already know which cousin of my generation has taken up her place.

Marriage:

Quote:
Therefore, men and women look for partners because they want to deepen their own spirits and make themselves more respectable in the eyes of their friends and family, for themsevles individually, as well as collectively. They get married because one will give the other something that will make each of them better human beings and make their souls shine brighter than they would have had they remained apart.
Maybe. I think reasons for marriage are more varied.
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Old 29th April 2018, 01:26 AM   #427506  /  #3
gib
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men are better at physical work and also mental work so can therefore provide food and shelter for the woman in exchange for sex
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Old 29th April 2018, 01:31 AM   #427510  /  #4
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Agreed
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Old 29th April 2018, 04:17 AM   #427522  /  #5
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That made my wife laugh but also materially reduces my chances
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Old 29th April 2018, 06:36 AM   #427533  /  #6
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marriage is an outdated institution that was supposed to assist with the raising of children but didn't work out as intended and plus the world doesn't need a lot of new children anyway so we should look for a better idea.

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Old 29th April 2018, 07:24 AM   #427535  /  #7
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are you thinking what im thinking
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Old 29th April 2018, 11:27 AM   #427537  /  #8
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Well in Australia marriage is defined as..

"the union of 2 people to the exclusion of all others, voluntarily entered into for life."

So in theory, I suppose it might be possible for two women to marry. Or even two men. I'm not sure if anybody has cottoned on to this yet. (Did you notice it said "people"?) But the notion of husband and wife kind of goes out the window if two "people" who happen not to be a man and a women rock up to the registry office and ask to be hitched. What will the celebrant say?

Still, I'm sure it won't happen. It's 2018. Not 3018. Lol.
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Old 29th April 2018, 12:44 PM   #427541  /  #9
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I am thinking we replace it with two other legal definitions that would be registered with the appropriate authorities:

1. Parent/Co-Parent. A designation related to a legal, financial and social obligation to care for offspring.

2. Significant Other. Another legal definition related to the person you trust to handle your affairs and have access to your accounts should you become incapacitated.

Who you are living with or sleeping with wouldn't matter to the above definitions. Of course you could still get "married" if you want, but it wouldn't be recognized as a legal or financial obligation, just a "spiritual" one.
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Old 29th April 2018, 12:46 PM   #427542  /  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlsson View Post
are you thinking what im thinking
I doubt it : )

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Old 29th April 2018, 01:28 PM   #427544  /  #11
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Firstly, to ever think that a man could ever understand a woman's sexuality
from her point of view is complete idiocy.

Generally a lifetime together has no aspirational limits - I get to be me,
whilst co-habiting with her. Should I decide to change me,
then she better accept it, yada yada yada.

Ideally two peeps spend sufficient time telling and showing each other
who they are in good and bad times, moments, issues before saying "I do".
Hopefully neither will ever change fundamentally during then next N decades,
but we all know there are no guarantees, therefore DIVORCE court awaits
those in need/want.

meh
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Old 29th April 2018, 08:15 PM   #427554  /  #12
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bor we have had some of those in my family too, for a very long time it was my Great Aunt Inez who I called Auntie. She was the rock of the family for sure. She went on scholarship to UC Berkeley and ended up getting pregnant and the well to do guy who got her preggers and his family refused to have them get married because she was not of suitible wealth and family connections. So she came home married the first man she could and ended up with an abusive alcoholic and had two more kids. When her youngest was a baby, she divorced her hubby which was not common in the 50s.

She moved back into the family home with her parents and her 3 kids and helped them raise my mom as well. (My granma had dropped her off as a baby and went to be Rosie the Riveter during the war and had remarried but left my mom with her parents). After my great granma died around the time I was 2, Auntie stepped in as the matriarch and the rock that so many depended on. She almost never gave a compliment, but let you know when you did something wrong, she was always there for her family, she had a bitter, wry saracstic sense of humor and loved puns and crossword puzzles.

Unfortunately, there really has not been a replacement since she died, her son Harry has filled the gap a bit but he is not a matriarch. So for the most part, our family has pretty much lost a lot of cohesion and split into the smaller family groups. The whole clan feel when I was growing up has been lost
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Old 29th April 2018, 11:33 PM   #427562  /  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
Perhaps. With reservations.

My husband said "Let's get married."

I think that's rather different than "Will you marry me?"

We already loved and respected each other. Both of us.

Why do you think the man and the woman have different reasons?

And many women and men do not ever marry, living fulfilled lives without the need of a partner.

In my family there has been a succession, through half a dozen generations at least, of women who never married. They have always been the childless matriarchal centres of their generations, having the time and often the wherewithal to teach independence and self-sufficiency especially to the next generation of daughters, as well as bestowing endless kindnesses around them.

My 92 year old aunt is the last fading avatar of that tradition, and I already know which cousin of my generation has taken up her place.

Marriage:

Quote:
Therefore, men and women look for partners because they want to deepen their own spirits and make themselves more respectable in the eyes of their friends and family, for themsevles individually, as well as collectively. They get married because one will give the other something that will make each of them better human beings and make their souls shine brighter than they would have had they remained apart.
Maybe. I think reasons for marriage are more varied.
Excuse me. I didn't mean to say men and women had different reasons. I meant to say they're the same. As much as the male gender tends to be more direct and the female gender more indirect, they share the same motives for wanting to live together.

You present a curious alternative to propose than 'will you marry me?' in the form of, 'Let's get married.' It's a nice way that I wouldn't use, because to me it seems a little strange, as I am not used to it and the previous generations of my family have never used it as far as I know, but I do understand, and appreciate, the idea.

The main thing to consider is that the husband and wife both come to the conclusion that living alone wouldn't be desirable for either of them. To live together would take them on a new path that, if walked seperately, wouldn't have satisfied them as much as it would have had they done it together.

This is a decision men and women make of their own free will, with each of the parties seeking the satisfaction of having caught a fish in the sea and being the fish that was caught in the sea, so to speak.
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Old 30th April 2018, 08:35 AM   #427578  /  #14
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There have been rumours about Mrs. Paul and the Gorton's fisherman.
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Old 2nd May 2018, 10:17 AM   #427811  /  #15
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I found this article on the internet. It highlights how to make a marriage to work properly. I thought it would be helpful in furthering this discussion, as the concept of giving what the husband and wife need from one another, is a big part of this thread. I think it might have been better if I had put need instead of want in the title.

https://www.inc.com/marcel-schwantes...ther-ofte.html
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Old 2nd May 2018, 01:16 PM   #427833  /  #16
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https://www.inc.com

Quote:
3 Things You Can Do Attract and Retain Top Talent
BY EMILY CANAL
Are You a Jerk or a Star on LinkedIn? This Company Can Help You Find Out
BY NANCY A. SHENKER
Jeff Bezos Knows How to Run a Meeting. Here's How He Does It
BY JUSTIN BARISO
Hollywood Generates Tons of Garbage. This Startup Wants to Clean Up the $40 Billion Industry
BY MICHELLE CHENG
looks like a premium information source
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Old 2nd May 2018, 03:15 PM   #427865  /  #17
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Sorry, Tristan, but that article is mostly fluff and nice words, and again, treats men and women as if they are different species with entirely different goals in life and entirely different emotional needs.

You need to understand that the similarities between men and women far, far outnumber their differences.

Men and women who love each other want the same things from their marriage - love, intimacy, support. If they have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get those basic needs fulfilled, then their marriage is not a healthy one.
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Old 2nd May 2018, 03:40 PM   #427866  /  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
You need to understand that the similarities between men and women far, far outnumber their differences.
And over time they even start to look alike, though this phenomenon is obviously stronger with pets.



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Old 2nd May 2018, 03:52 PM   #427867  /  #19
borealis
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Lol!

Though tbh mr.b and me have been together for 29 years (27 married) and we don't look much alike... yet.
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Old 2nd May 2018, 04:27 PM   #427868  /  #20
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Loving

I read this book when I was 17 or so. It changed my entire way of looking at relationships. I don't even remember it that well, but I know it is the basis of my thinking on human relationships.

Quote:
Because modern humans are alienated from each other and from nature, we seek refuge from our lonesomeness in romantic love and marriage (pp. 79–81). However, Fromm observes that real love "is not a sentiment which can be easily indulged in by anyone." It is only through developing one's total personality to the capacity of loving one's neighbor with "true humility, courage, faith and discipline" that one attains the capacity to experience real love. This should be considered a rare achievement (p. vii). Fromm defended these opinions also in interview with Mike Wallace when he states: "love today is a relatively rare phenomenon, that we have a great deal of sentimentality; we have a great deal of illusion about love, namely as a...as something one falls in. But the question is that one cannot fall in love, really; one has to be in love. And that means that loving becomes, and the ability to love, becomes one of the most important things in life."[5]

Fromm calls the general idea of love in contemporary Western society gosme deux – a relationship in which each person is entirely focused on the other, to the detriment of other people around them. The current belief is that a couple should be a well-assorted team, sexually and functionally, working towards a common aim. This is in contrast with Fromm's description of true love and intimacy, which involves willful commitment directed toward a single unique individual. One cannot truly love another person if one does not love all of mankind including oneself.
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Old 3rd May 2018, 12:12 AM   #427886  /  #21
MSG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
Lol!

Though tbh mr.b and me have been together for 29 years (27 married) and we don't look much alike... yet.
I bet people who know you will disagree
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Old 3rd May 2018, 12:16 AM   #427888  /  #22
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let's get b2 to respond
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Old 3rd May 2018, 02:25 AM   #427918  /  #23
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I look increasingly like <shudder> my mother. Last time I was home I went to church with my sister and one of the really old ladies damn near fainted when she thought she was seeing my mom.

Mr.b does not look like my mother. Nope.
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Old 3rd May 2018, 02:28 AM   #427920  /  #24
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"bearded dwarf womenz", that's all I'm sayin'.
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Old 3rd May 2018, 02:39 AM   #427926  /  #25
MondoVman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
I look increasingly like <shudder> my mother. Last time I was home I went to church with my sister and one of the really old ladies damn near fainted when she thought she was seeing my mom.

Mr.b does not look like my mother. Nope.
I'll wager you don't so much look like your mother as this ...
- Two of my brothers and I are beginning to look more like
each other, i.e. our older selves. Therefore you as well as
your mother, as you aged, look similar yes, but not really
who you looked like the majority of your adult lives, yes?
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