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Old 18th October 2013, 03:33 PM   #120231  /  #1
QuitoAirgoSome
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A Good Article About Inappropriate Sports Team Names

Krauthammer nails it here -- http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...8ea_story.html

This is the only argument that really addresses, implicitly, why names like "Washington Redskins" ought to be changed, but Florida State Seminoles, Minnesota Vikings, and Notre Dame Fighting Irish probably need not be changed.

Not sure if our non-American members have similar issues in other countries. But, in the US, some sports team names are controversial, one of the most controversial being the Wasthington Redskins American Football Team.

Other teams that had issues were the Atlanta Braves and Cleveland Indians baseball teams, the Kansas City Chiefs football team, Chicago Blackhawks hockey team.

Anyway, I think Krauthammer nails it. I mean, you wouldn't call an American Indian a "redskin" in common English usage. I guess you wouldn't call a scandinavian guy a "viking" anymore either, but one is clearly pejorative and the other not. Redskin refers to skin color, whereas viking means a kind of pirate. If the Minnesota Vikings were, instead, the Minnesota Pinkskins or Palefaces, there might be some call for modification too.

What say you all?
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Old 18th October 2013, 04:35 PM   #120239  /  #2
borealis
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Vikings might be insulted by being called pirates. I don't think they saw it that way.
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Old 18th October 2013, 04:47 PM   #120241  /  #3
QuitoAirgoSome
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Pirates may be insulted by being called pirates.

I'm lookin' at you Pittsburgh baseball team....

And, don't get me started on the Tampa Bay Buccaneers....
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Old 18th October 2013, 06:38 PM   #120254  /  #4
gib
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24133145
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Old 18th October 2013, 07:09 PM   #120258  /  #5
Dionysus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
Vikings might be insulted by being called pirates. I don't think they saw it that way.
Lol, I think you're right! Remember the name folks - coming to a settlement near you anytime soon
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Old 18th October 2013, 07:22 PM   #120259  /  #6
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Originally Posted by borealis View Post
Vikings might be insulted by being called pirates. I don't think they saw it that way.
They saw other vikings as pirates.
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Old 18th October 2013, 07:59 PM   #120264  /  #7
borealis
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And I'll bet those other vikings were awfully insulted and shook their axes at them.
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Old 18th October 2013, 08:08 PM   #120265  /  #8
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Many a strongly-worded runestone was sent.
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Yay from
borealis (18th October 2013), Dionysus (18th October 2013), Teshi (19th October 2013)
Old 18th October 2013, 08:30 PM   #120267  /  #9
QuitoAirgoSome
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gib View Post
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24133145

LOL - "hate speech."
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Old 18th October 2013, 08:33 PM   #120269  /  #10
Dionysus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuitoAirgoSome View Post
Krauthammer nails it here -- http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...8ea_story.html

This is the only argument that really addresses, implicitly, why names like "Washington Redskins" ought to be changed, but Florida State Seminoles, Minnesota Vikings, and Notre Dame Fighting Irish probably need not be changed.

Not sure if our non-American members have similar issues in other countries. But, in the US, some sports team names are controversial, one of the most controversial being the Wasthington Redskins American Football Team.

Other teams that had issues were the Atlanta Braves and Cleveland Indians baseball teams, the Kansas City Chiefs football team, Chicago Blackhawks hockey team.

Anyway, I think Krauthammer nails it. I mean, you wouldn't call an American Indian a "redskin" in common English usage. I guess you wouldn't call a scandinavian guy a "viking" anymore either, but one is clearly pejorative and the other not. Redskin refers to skin color, whereas viking means a kind of pirate. If the Minnesota Vikings were, instead, the Minnesota Pinkskins or Palefaces, there might be some call for modification too.

What say you all?
I say the only thing he nails is that he should change his own name to Charles Dumbfucker.

That's one of the dumbest arguments I've yet heard on this issue. He kicks off with a desperately earnest plea about not wishing to be cowed by the language police but notes that word usage does in fact change with time. He goes on to hinge his argument around how would it be if we were to refer to African American US congresspersons as negroes since that has changed from historical respectability to a modern perjorative term. The point he misses entirely is that a team name does not in any way refer to any individuals and is a cultural entity to which adheres certain historical cultural baggage.

To attempt to strip such entities of their historical perspective because some pc wanker (not the supposedly offended but a thought police apparatchik) determines it is now offensive is a blatant attempt to completely 'sanitise' a language and rewrite history by 'evolving' the language in the desired political direction. Fuck that.

He suggests that 'Skins', which is an already in use contraction is suitable but you know, I believe I may find that an offensive sleight on the violent nature of the late 60's skinhead movement in the UK which was also contracted to 'skins'. Heil skins indeed!

This 'offense' chasing never stops. Once we adopt it as a reasonable way to proceed, the thought police have us by the gonads - sorry that's sexist since female gonads are not externally accessible - insert any other bit of non primary or secondary sexual characteristic yet still sensitive anatomy. I submit that Nelson's Column in London's Trafalgar Square is deeply offensive to all French people and propose that it be dismantled, the stones rebuilt into a monument celebrating the Entente Cordiale and the square renamed to Bon Accord Square.

It's ok to be offended - really - it is. It is your inalienable right to be offended by anyone and anything whatsoever but it is not your right to have everyone else do something about that.

Perhaps he should note that his own name of Krauthammer is insulting to the German American people since it is a portmanteau of a perjorative for Germans and a violence indicative term. If the vast majority of German Americans say they aren't actually offended by that, I don't care, I'm offended on their behalf. Please change it to Kramer thanks.

Hail Kramer.

Nah, let's stick with hail Dumbfucker.
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Old 18th October 2013, 09:06 PM   #120272  /  #11
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I don't know if I completely agree with you, but that is extremely well-written and persuasive. I'll need to think on it more.
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Old 18th October 2013, 11:07 PM   #120286  /  #12
Dionysus
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I only rant like that here because my 16 yo daughter would kick my arse at home
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Old 19th October 2013, 12:03 AM   #120287  /  #13
gib
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: the thin one out of Laurel & Hardy
Dio, where you from?
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Old 19th October 2013, 12:11 AM   #120290  /  #14
Dionysus
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http://mindromp.org/forum/showpost.p...3&postcount=30

but originally from the north west.
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Old 19th October 2013, 01:12 PM   #120385  /  #15
gib
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scouser?
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Old 19th October 2013, 05:02 PM   #120396  /  #16
Dionysus
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Not that urbane. General purpose Pennine Lancs/Yorks borders.
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Old 20th October 2013, 09:14 AM   #120503  /  #17
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Rockville, MD
If somebody sued the NAACP for their use of Colored, the UNCF for their use of Negro and BET for their use of Black as disparaging in attempt to force a name change, I would be making the same argument I am now.

However, if they brought up the fact that these terms have fallen out of common usage and are anachronisms, I would agree. In my lifetime I've never heard "redskin" used as a a descriptor much less an intentional epithet, and I've spent the last 15 years in Phoenix where I've heard numerous disparaging remarks about Native Americans. The vast majority of Native Americans surveyed take no offense to the name.

Words are as powerful as you let them be. In this case nobody intended any insult by naming the team as they did. I don't know about you, but for me if somebody doesn't mean to insult me, then I tend to chill-out rather than argue the point. I might explain why I perceived it as an insult, but I don't continue to be insulted when people don't intend to insult me. How is that in any way productive?

In American culture (please don't play the "Native American isn't American?" semantic quibble - you know what I mean), we honor groups by naming teams after them. You think meat PACKERS, COWBOYS and STEELERS are all bent out of shape? As for mascots, it's an honor for (say) a sick child to be a mascot for a day. That's just how this culture rolls.

Tolerance is a two-way street. I think naming a child Burning Wood or Running Bear is rather stupid and, quite frankly, insulting to a child. I would never even consider doing it. But I can accept that in other cultures that's how they roll, so I don't force my beliefs on them.

Everything the Redskins proclaim to be about in terms of ethics is uplifting, even if it's just marketing hype in some cases. Why would somebody choose, and yes, it's a choice, to ignore all that and persist on claiming it's an insult?

One thing I really appreciate about how homosexuals have dealt with the world is how they deal with names. "Are we gay? If by gay you mean we are sexually and romantically attracted to the same sex, then yes, we are gay. Am I a fag? If by fag you mean I am someone who is sexually and romantically attracted to the same sex, then yes, I am a fag."

So, are you a redskin? Well, that depends. If you mean a member of the football team, check the roster. If you mean "am I a descendant of one of the indigenous tribes in North America when the European settlers arrived, then yes, I am a redskin. But I prefer to referred to as Bob or a member of <tribe>. Nobody really uses that word anymore except to refer to the football team."

We've had the conversation. People have been enlightened as to the history and the sensitivity of a minority of a minority. It's time to let it go. Well, it was time to let it go when they lost the court case.

One side of this debate is being intolerant here, and they don't wear burgundy and gold.
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Old 20th October 2013, 09:16 AM   #120505  /  #18
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Here's something to consider. Obama was "adopted" by a tribal family of the name Black Eagle and given a new name. I could present a slew of arguments about how insulting that is. First, it had to be the "Black" Eagle family? They couldn't have picked another family that didn't reference color in the name?

In our culture you just don't get to "adopt" people into your family and rename them. That's disrespectful to the family. Names are very personal, and renaming somebody is disrespectful to their heritage. That's not cultural exchange, that's cultural appropriation.

Only it's not. It's their way of bestowing an honor, and we respect their intention and look for ways to embrace it rather than reject it. Shouldn't we expect the same in return?
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Old 20th October 2013, 09:24 AM   #120507  /  #19
UncaYimmy
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We all do things that upset other groups of people, so I don't think by itself that's a metric for not doing something. We all have to make judgments based on our own conscience.

To me the intent of a speaker is by far the most important metric for judging something to be disparaging. Despite the countless millions of utterances and writings of that word over the last 60 years, nobody saying the word is disparaging has been able to come up with anybody intentionally using that way.

For decades literally hundreds millions of people used/saw the term Redskins in reference to the football team and never considered it insulting. And by that I mean the idea never even popped into their heads. It wasn't heard as "red skin" the compound word just like we don't think of gatorade as a drink for the Florida Gators. We don't think of headquarters in terms of its component words either.

As a practical matter, I think the world would be a better place if we all considered the intent of the speaker when deciding if something is insulting. Think about this: if you feel "insulted" when the other person didn't intend an insult, then it's really your own insecurity at work. I mean, what else could it be? Since we all have insecurities, then no matter what happens, somebody somewhere is going to feel insulted no matter what you say to the contrary later.

This whole thing about the Redskins was started by a woman who is a Native American rights activist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzan_Shown_Harjo). There wasn't a groundswell pushing it. Personally, I think it was an attempt at garnering publicity about Native American rights, and it worked.

Did you know that this woman had a bi-weekly radio show about Native American news called "Seeing Red." Doesn't it seem a little hypocritical to later decide that "Redskin" is so disparaging that millions of people can no longer use that name and that a business must lose millions of dollars as a result?

Sure, maybe it was a case of being self-disparaging and not letting anyone else do it, a practice I find a little silly. I think it makes more sense that it was a matter of using limited resources to go after the team in a trademark lawsuit in order to get publicity and thus more donations, which they can then use for more practical causes.

Think about it. What's the end game if they win? Will any member of any tribe benefit in any practical way? Will one life be better? Remember, poverty and other social problems are rampant on reservations, and this debate is purely cosmetic, so to speak. If they "win" then what? The Redskins lose their trademark protection, which means everyone and his brother will be able to make and sell Redskins stuff. That means for at least a while there will be more pieces added to the millions of pieces already out there.

Do you think people will stop wearing Redskins gear? Even if they change the name, do you think they will bar people from entering the stadium wearing Redskins gear? I can't imagine the crapstorm that would cause.

At best what happens is that a minority of a minority has the satisfaction of forcing people to behave they way they want. They won't have won minds and hearts. The people I've seen who have expressed support tend to do so along the lines of what that article has expressed, which is "if it upsets them so much, then just change the name." They still use the term Redskins without wincing or whispering, like that might do with real epithets that I won't list here.

Somebody thinking about all the issues Native Americans face in terms of poverty (twice the poverty on reservations as opposed to Americans in general) and alcoholism (alcohol mortality rate is 5X the general population). One might think that money spent on this naming battle could be better spent helping people in a practical way.

Thing is, I'm pretty sure that the publicity from this 20 year battle has garnered far more in donations and political will than it has cost. I can't say that the Machiavelli in me doesn't appreciate the tactic. The longer people can debate to a standstill, the more the tribes benefit. Because quite frankly their other issues rarely make the news.

I think there's enough to give one pause as to why such a small group has persisted in this fight. I live in Phoenix. I wear my Redskins gear like many others and see Native Americans in the bars. Nobody even bats an eye. Try that with other epithets and see what happens. There's a small group pushing and always has been.

Last edited by UncaYimmy; 20th October 2013 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 20th October 2013, 09:47 AM   #120510  /  #20
MSG
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I'm so glad UncaYimmy has returned to offer his very significant insights into this important topic
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Old 20th October 2013, 10:57 AM   #120516  /  #21
Dionysus
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Propose name change to 'Bushniggers'.
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Old 20th October 2013, 07:39 PM   #120536  /  #22
UncaYimmy
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Originally Posted by MSG View Post
I'm so glad UncaYimmy has returned to offer his very significant insights into this important topic
Why are you always so quick to resort to personal attacks? I would think that people join a discussion board to discuss things. If you've got nothing useful to offer on a topic, is it really that difficult to just, I dunno, not type anything?

What do you get out of attacking people personally? Does it make you feel better about yourself? Do you understand that bringing people down doesn't elevate you in the process?
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Old 20th October 2013, 09:44 PM   #120537  /  #23
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I didn't see a personal attack there.
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Old 20th October 2013, 10:04 PM   #120539  /  #24
MSG
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No, there was one.
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Old 20th October 2013, 11:38 PM   #120540  /  #25
gib
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UY, your turn
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