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Old 26th August 2019, 08:07 PM   #450141  /  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
Could it be that one party likes the 'republic' system, while the other wants a 'democracy'?
I bet that sounded really clever in your head.
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Old 27th August 2019, 03:29 PM   #450149  /  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
Could it be that one party likes the 'republic' system, while the other wants a 'democracy'?
I bet that sounded really clever in your head.
I bet that sounded like a clever riposte in your head.
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Old 27th August 2019, 07:46 PM   #450150  /  #78
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1. The "financial" case for green energy doesn't matter as much as just admitting it is happening and making preparations to deal with the fallout.


Remember Katrina? It's usually the poor that get left behind and treated badly.



The homeless problem in California has been exacerbated by the years and years of destructive fires.



Also, the problems with the National Flood Insurance program are getting worse, and much more expensive. There are houses that have been rebuilt 7 times or more on some of our coasts due to floods and hurricanes.



And then there is the infrastructure problem. There are farmers right now in Nebraska that don't know if they are going to get their land back from the river because the Army Core of Engineers doesn't know if they are going to get the money to rebuild the dykes that were destroyed in the last flood.


We don't have ANY plan at ALL to deal with expense of the constant disasters. Every time one happens, it is paid for by a special appropriations bill that is outside of the current budget. While FEMA is getting better at dealing with things, much of our disaster relief is dependent on the Red Cross, which is dependent on DONATIONS.
Individual relief is dependent on Insurance companies, which can and have gone bankrupt and been unable to pay out claims.





2. Yes, states could provide Free ID. But when the voting laws were changed the ID problem wasn't addressed at the same time. It wasn't done fairly or sensibly. For example, in Texas, there are rural communities whose DMV offices are few and far between, and only open 1 day a week on a rotating basis. There are old people who no longer drive who couldn't vote because their Drivers License expired, and even though they had been voting for years, they were denied.



3. People have been criticizing the Electoral College system since 1824, and on both sides. The reasons FOR the electoral college no longer exist, which mostly had to do with how long it took for news and information to travel in the 1700's.



4. The differences between a democratic republic and a democracy have little to do with the electoral college. The electoral college doesn't do anything to protect minorities from the will of the majority. The Bill of Rights in the Constitution and the Federal courts are supposed to do that. Which is why the Republicans packing the Federal courts with hard line conservatives IS an issue to minority rights.


5. My voting for President doesn't count, and hasn't for decades. Between gerrymandering and the Electoral college, it is pointless for me to bother to vote. Millions of Americans from both parties are in the same situation. That would be completely different if I lived in a few counties in Florida or Ohio. Basically, because of the system, there are very few places where your vote could actually matter. That doesn't sound like either a democratic republic or a democracy to me.


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Old 27th August 2019, 07:48 PM   #450151  /  #79
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Waddle waddle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
Could it be that one party likes the 'republic' system, while the other wants a 'democracy'?
I bet that sounded really clever in your head.
I bet that sounded like a clever riposte in your head.
Got a laugh out of nostrum anyway. Might not sound like much, but that's 0.75 more people than your post managed to entertain.
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Old 27th August 2019, 07:48 PM   #450152  /  #80
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That's a midget joke, by the way. I don't mean to suggest anyone gave you a quarter-chuckle.

Just so we're clear.
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Old 28th August 2019, 12:20 AM   #450155  /  #81
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Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
1. The "financial" case for green energy doesn't matter as much as just admitting it is happening and making preparations to deal with the fallout.


Remember Katrina? It's usually the poor that get left behind and treated badly.



The homeless problem in California has been exacerbated by the years and years of destructive fires.



Also, the problems with the National Flood Insurance program are getting worse, and much more expensive. There are houses that have been rebuilt 7 times or more on some of our coasts due to floods and hurricanes.



And then there is the infrastructure problem. There are farmers right now in Nebraska that don't know if they are going to get their land back from the river because the Army Core of Engineers doesn't know if they are going to get the money to rebuild the dykes that were destroyed in the last flood.


We don't have ANY plan at ALL to deal with expense of the constant disasters. Every time one happens, it is paid for by a special appropriations bill that is outside of the current budget. While FEMA is getting better at dealing with things, much of our disaster relief is dependent on the Red Cross, which is dependent on DONATIONS.
Individual relief is dependent on Insurance companies, which can and have gone bankrupt and been unable to pay out claims.
So lefty talking points are ok with you? It's so 'churchy' that all the movement needs is a child-preacher, touring around and doing a tent-revival instead of being in school. THEN it'll really be a movement with respect!

That was sarcasms. I know you deserve better, but I'm completely unconvinced by you retweeting the choir.


Quote:



2. Yes, states could provide Free ID. But when the voting laws were changed the ID problem wasn't addressed at the same time. It wasn't done fairly or sensibly. For example, in Texas, there are rural communities whose DMV offices are few and far between, and only open 1 day a week on a rotating basis. There are old people who no longer drive who couldn't vote because their Drivers License expired, and even though they had been voting for years, they were denied.
Sounds like a problem that could be solved. Not by resisting a citizenship question on the census, of course. That would just seem batshit crazy.

Do apportionments matter? Do districts get more bucks for more people, but then only need to let real citizens vote?

If that is the case, then there would be horrible political motivation to get non-citizen populations in a district up as much as possible.

Quote:
3. People have been criticizing the Electoral College system since 1824, and on both sides. The reasons FOR the electoral college no longer exist, which mostly had to do with how long it took for news and information to travel in the 1700's.
I hadn't heard that reason. The one I've best understood was that it was in place so that places with very high populations (like NYC) could not ignore the concerns of less populous areas.

But that seems another reason to keep it. How long did that 'Florida Lady' take last time to count up the votes? Wasn't it DAYS?

So electoral college still good on at least 2 counts, at least to me.
Quote:

4. The differences between a democratic republic and a democracy have little to do with the electoral college. The electoral college doesn't do anything to protect minorities from the will of the majority. The Bill of Rights in the Constitution and the Federal courts are supposed to do that. Which is why the Republicans packing the Federal courts with hard line conservatives IS an issue to minority rights.
The difference as you described, maybe.
I think others have a different understanding which doesn't match.

Quote:

5. My voting for President doesn't count, and hasn't for decades. Between gerrymandering and the Electoral college, it is pointless for me to bother to vote. Millions of Americans from both parties are in the same situation. That would be completely different if I lived in a few counties in Florida or Ohio. Basically, because of the system, there are very few places where your vote could actually matter. That doesn't sound like either a democratic republic or a democracy to me.


My vote similarly doesn't count, nationally. I live in the west, and in Canada, Ontario and Quebec decide federal matters.

But Canada isn't a democracy, nor is the US.

As I have been noticing, if one can't eludicate the Republican position fairly, and well, then one probably doesn't understand it.

This 'electoral college vs democracy' difference (along with a few others) is one of the ones I see often misunderstood, seemingly deliberately at times.

Like the gun divide, or the abortion divide, I think this one is one which allows no compromise to those who feel their 'side' is right.
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Old 28th August 2019, 04:42 AM   #450156  /  #82
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11111. Those aren't talking points, that is my own opinion of some of the failures of Congress when it comes to disaster planning, and mostly I think that is caused by climate change denial. The right is still big on denying climate change, but as more and more places suffer repeated disasters, public opinion is changing about it. Meanwhile, our Defense Department and our National Security agency ARE planning for Climate change, with the help of the right. The right seems to want to deny it is happening if it has any negative affect on business, but accepts that it matters if it has positive effects on business (contractors and pork). I don't think they should have it both ways, which is what they are doing now.


2. It's a problem that SHOULD have been solved BEFORE the laws were changed, or at least at the same time. The right to vote should be sacrosanct, but the right has been stepping all over it, while at the same time ignoring other voter fraud concerns that don't happen at the individual level, such as hacking and lack of paper trails for auditing.


3. The electoral College DOES NOT address the differences between rural and urban populations AT ALL. A states electoral votes are based on it's population, period. It doesn't matter WHERE in the state the people live. In fact, it gives the more populated states MORE power over the lesser populated ones, exactly the opposite of the point you are trying to make. I don't even see how anyone could think that the electoral college addressed the urban rural issue. Gerrymandering does to a degree, because big city districts are split and combined with rural districts.


4. I researched the difference on websites. https://keydifferences.com/differenc...-republic.html The rule of law that protects individual rights is the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. If you have a different understanding then let me hear it.



5. Both parties have complained about the Electoral College. There are several state legislatures representing both parties that are trying to change it. This isn't an issue between right and left at all.
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Old 28th August 2019, 03:35 PM   #450159  /  #83
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
11111. Those aren't talking points, that is my own opinion of some of the failures of Congress when it comes to disaster planning, and mostly I think that is caused by climate change denial. The right is still big on denying climate change, but as more and more places suffer repeated disasters, public opinion is changing about it. Meanwhile, our Defense Department and our National Security agency ARE planning for Climate change, with the help of the right. The right seems to want to deny it is happening if it has any negative affect on business, but accepts that it matters if it has positive effects on business (contractors and pork). I don't think they should have it both ways, which is what they are doing now.
Talking points, which are still open for discussion, but coloured heavily depending on who is talking about them.

Saying that all righties are too stupid to comment is the same as saying all lefties are too stupid to comment.

Most are, but there are reasonable voices on both sides.

One side, however, looks more like a religion, what with the 'original sin' and apocalyptic predictions (which NEVER seem to come true)

I remain unconvinced. Maybe there is something which would convince me that I should support one set of politicians over another, but it isn't the global warming hogwash.

I've been hearing it for too long. Hell, Zeluvia, I remember being told to save the trees by switching away from paper bags.

Quote:

2. It's a problem that SHOULD have been solved BEFORE the laws were changed, or at least at the same time. The right to vote should be sacrosanct, but the right has been stepping all over it, while at the same time ignoring other voter fraud concerns that don't happen at the individual level, such as hacking and lack of paper trails for auditing.
Plenty from both sides fucking it up. I think the worst of it is importing lots of non-voters into areas for political purposes.

Which party stands regularly against ICE, border control and a citizenship question on the census?

Why do you suppose it is ALWAYS the left standing where one would stand if they were in favour of illegal immigration?

Quote:
3. The electoral College DOES NOT address the differences between rural and urban populations AT ALL. A states electoral votes are based on it's population, period. It doesn't matter WHERE in the state the people live. In fact, it gives the more populated states MORE power over the lesser populated ones, exactly the opposite of the point you are trying to make. I don't even see how anyone could think that the electoral college addressed the urban rural issue. Gerrymandering does to a degree, because big city districts are split and combined with rural districts.
Your opinion on this is in line with one political parties understanding of it now. I've heard others.

I like that it isn't a democracy. The majority are gross bullies, with no care for small concerns. (remember - I live in a rural area, with very little government representation, and giant global, renewable concerns trying to roll over small populations and their traditional lands)
Quote:


4. I researched the difference on websites. https://keydifferences.com/differenc...-republic.html The rule of law that protects individual rights is the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. If you have a different understanding then let me hear it.
It's not protecting individual rights. It's protecting against the most populous cities dictating everything for the least populous areas.

You are the one suggesting that individual rights are protected by the Bill of Rights. It may be, but my understanding of the electoral college is that when the dems lose, they fucking hate it. When they win, it's a fair system.

That matches my memories pretty well. The dems are losers now, they are the ones complaining.
Quote:



5. Both parties have complained about the Electoral College. There are several state legislatures representing both parties that are trying to change it. This isn't an issue between right and left at all.
It IS an issue between them, because they can't change it without both parties agreeing.

If both can't even agree on what the 1st or 2nd amendment means (without mis-representing the other side, I mean) then they have very little chance of agreeing on anything near that importance.

I'm not even sure what you are trying to convince me of, Z. That the climate is changing? We all know that. I've known since the 80's, maybe earlier...

That I should vote to give heaps of money to an international organization who promises very little, but insists that WE MUST ACT IMMEDIATELY, and then puts a teenage girl up front as their preacher?

Or that I should run my truck a bit less, improve insulation on my house, treat my neighbours gently and well? What is it you think I'm missing?
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Old 28th August 2019, 04:37 PM   #450160  /  #84
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Cunt, you seem to think I am always on the left, but I am not. There are mixed issues and mixed bags on both sides.



I really dislike Christians. Especially white fundamentalist evangelicals. They are on the right.



The left however has Hispanics, who are Catholic, and black people, who are also very religious.



I think border security IS an issue, but I think the wall is stupid, because of geography. I think Border Security is an issue because of climate change and the possibility of massive numbers of refugees. I think the US military should have bases right the fuck ON the border and we should deploy our highest security tech, not a wall.



If you go back and look, when I posted the Trump emails I didn't give my opinion of them. You are the one that started posting and taking sides. I have been pointing out the flaws in the reasoning of the sides of you are taking.



If I am trying to convince you of anything, it's that you don't understand the issues deeply enough to agree with anyone's opinion of them.
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Old 28th August 2019, 04:57 PM   #450161  /  #85
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It's not protecting individual rights. It's protecting against the most populous cities dictating everything for the least populous areas.
Show me your math. Because it doesn't exist.


Let's take for example New York State. 40% of New York States' Population lives in the City, and another 40% live on Long Island. So 20% of the population of the State is Not in the city.



New York has 29 electoral votes. That is equal to the number of Senators and Representatives New York State has in Congress.


North Dakota has 3 electoral votes. That is also equal to the number of Congressmen.



It's the same for all states. It is proportioned strictly by population, and the number of votes = the number of congressmen that represent the state in Congress.


So please explain how the system PROTECTS less populated areas from being dictated too by the more populated areas?



It's impossible that it does, because it directly awards votes based on population, more population = more votes, both in the Electoral College and in Congress. I can't see any logical way anyone could construe that it somehow gave equal weight to less populated areas.


I am confused about your definition of a republic. Please expand, and use links if possible. Because what you are saying makes no sense.



The reason we are a Republic, as I was taught in school, has nothing to do with individuals anyway, it was about the relationship between the Federal Government and the States. The States retained all powers not granted to the Federal Government, so they had some independence in governing themselves. This is what makes us a Republic, a Confederation of semi independent States.



That definition that I learned some 50 years ago is no where to be found on line. Merriam Webster says a Republic is merely a country that doesn't have an inherited leadership, but it doesn't have to be democratic. The leader can be chosen in other ways, or it can have a council of leaders instead of a single leader.


So please explain what YOU think a Republic is?
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Old 28th August 2019, 06:10 PM   #450166  /  #86
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"It's the same for all states. It is proportioned strictly by population, and the number of votes = the number of congressmen that represent the state in Congress."

You're an idiot.
New York has 27 electors based on its population. Another 2 cuz Senators.
North Dakota has 1 elector based on it being a state of our union. Another 2 cuz Senators.

Were ALL electors based only on population, North Dakota would have a total of 1 (or perhaps none if certain insane individuals had their way - are you one of those, Z?)

Fucking uninformed idiots can't even begin to understand electoral college math.
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Old 28th August 2019, 07:57 PM   #450169  /  #87
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Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
Cunt, you seem to think I am always on the left, but I am not. There are mixed issues and mixed bags on both sides.



I really dislike Christians. Especially white fundamentalist evangelicals. They are on the right.
This sure sounds like a blinkered, cartoon-like reality.

Quote:
The left however has Hispanics, who are Catholic, and black people, who are also very religious.
Catholics are Christians.

Religious stupidity knows both sides very well. (except the candidate with the initials 'BS', who can't get the nomination in part, because of his BS)


Quote:

I think border security IS an issue, but I think the wall is stupid, because of geography. I think Border Security is an issue because of climate change and the possibility of massive numbers of refugees. I think the US military should have bases right the fuck ON the border and we should deploy our highest security tech, not a wall.
How about the antifa attack on an ICE facility?

Did you like the way the media covered it?
Quote:



If you go back and look, when I posted the Trump emails I didn't give my opinion of them. You are the one that started posting and taking sides. I have been pointing out the flaws in the reasoning of the sides of you are taking.
What flaws in reasoning? I reason that politicians lie for their own benefit, and will sometimes admit it when they get caught.
Quote:
If I am trying to convince you of anything, it's that you don't understand the issues deeply enough to agree with anyone's opinion of them.
When you have studied enough, you will have the right to an opinion on climate change, and governments role in taxing the hell out of everyone to 'address' it.

Until then, I'll just dismiss this with most of the other noise. You can insist that the school-skipping teen is right, but I can get that from any public media source (along with the other lefty talking points)

It would be like you insisting that 99% of scientists agree on...well anything. That many scientists won't even agree to fill out a survey.
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Old 28th August 2019, 08:05 PM   #450170  /  #88
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Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
Quote:
It's not protecting individual rights. It's protecting against the most populous cities dictating everything for the least populous areas.
Show me your math. Because it doesn't exist.
So please explain what YOU think a Republic is?
You seem to insist that I understand something before having an opinion. My opinion is that there are reasonable arguments on both sides. If you want to convince me that both sides are reasonable, listening to smart people disagree is something I can find very convincing.

Having someone point out my lack of communication skill, or lack of research isn't all that convincing. Especially when my own position is so often misrepresented or misunderstood.

I've been wrong so often, I keep an eye on some general principles, rather than good arguments. For instance, lots of smart people could mop the floor with me, in my defense of 1a or 2a. No matter though, I'll still think the authors meant it, and that those who don't like that reality will endlessly quibble about the subtle meaning of phrases like 'right to bear arms', or 'shall not infringe'.

While those who accept it seem a lot more grounded in reality. Also are a lot more willing to discuss the real issues.
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Old 30th August 2019, 01:43 PM   #450178  /  #89
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My dislike of Christian Fundamentalists is a "Familiarity breeds Contempt" situation.


Christian Fundamentalists don't consider Catholics to be Christians. They are papists, because they follow the Pope.



I don't know anything about the antifa attack on ICE. Never heard of it.


I will apologize, because I was wrong about the Electoral College. There are 7 or 8 states that don't have enough population so get their 1 representative as defined by the constitution and therefore get 1 electoral vote. This is what happens when you don't research and go off what you learned in school.



Alaska, Vermont, Delaware, North Dakota, Wyoming, Montana, South Dakota each get 3 votes.



The biggest states are:



California 55
Texas 38
New York 29
Florida 29
Illinois 20
Pennsylvania 20


I still don't think it makes that much difference. But I find it more disturbing that many of the Electors are not bound by anything. They don't have to follow the popular vote, or even the vote IN THEIR STATE. They can vote for anyone they want, regardless of who won their state.


I am dropping this conversation now. Since I didn't send Trump money or take any more surveys, I haven't gotten any more emails.



And I recently did something really stupid, and joined my old guild on WOW Classic.


The guild is mostly european, and yesterday we were discussing Erdogan, and I learned a lot.



Now I have to race to 60 so I can wipe in MC!


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Old 30th August 2019, 03:12 PM   #450182  /  #90
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I don't know anything about the antifa attack on ICE. Never heard of it.
Thanks for writing along. I wish you weren't shielded from that news about the Antifa attack on an ICE facility, but remember how your news sources avoided it the next time they say they are 'your trusted news' or whatever.

Quote:
The guild is mostly european, and yesterday we were discussing Erdogan, and I learned a lot.



Now I have to race to 60 so I can wipe in MC!


It's been fun...enjoy your re-addiction.
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Old 30th August 2019, 04:58 PM   #450186  /  #91
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Cunt, I don't really HAVE any news sources lately. I have pretty much been ignoring the news entirely for about 4 months.




I didn't know there were hurricanes till I read about them in OB's post, and then I called my mother.



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Old 30th August 2019, 05:24 PM   #450188  /  #92
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And I recently did something really stupid, and joined my old guild on WOW Classic.

I'm in the process of getting back into SWTOR, it will just take me several days to download 50gig at 512kb/s
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