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Old 30th July 2020, 11:24 PM   #461170  /  #14351
Mantisdreamz
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Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
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Originally Posted by Mantisdreamz View Post
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They have the right to try anything. They don't have the 'right' to equal outcomes.
"They?" Look at the way you speak about females. Like they are others. Maybe you don't do it intentionally, but ahh.. kinda says something.

Quote:
Females make different choices than males, and it shows in many of their privileges.
What privileges?
More years of life.

There are many, since everyone has privilege, and struggle, but that one is a pretty solid one.
Quote:

Quote:
From their longer life expectancy, to their lack of representation in many fields. It's their choices, and often (in my opinion) their*better*choices
I don't understand this.
In societies where sex equality is the most progressive, women choose pink collar jobs more often.

Most of those jobs pay less. They aren't stupid - they know it going in. It's a choice they make willingly. It's a choice YOU made willingly.

Your earning potential (lifetime) is diminished by the time you took raising the kids instead of working 90 hour weeks at your out-side the home career.

I think it's a good choice, which will pay you well, though not in dollars.
The time I took for raising kids was not something that was really my choice, and for a lot, something that just ends up happening.

But it's up to the females to take on the "chore" because we are the ones who get pregnant. It's not just one person's choice... the male should have the same responsibility. But due to biology, they don't.

Because of something that's out of our hands, we shouldn't have negative consequences.

On the mom's forum, I've seen quite a few women complain about the bias when they get back to work. One main thing, for instance, is that since the woman is back to work, they will still need to time to pump breastmilk throughout the day. And that seems to be frowned upon. Taking time out of the work day to do that. That's completely unfair though. It's not our "fault" that its necessary and then are deemed as lower productive type employee. It goes to show a bit of a lack of understanding.
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Old 30th July 2020, 11:34 PM   #461171  /  #14352
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Also, when you refer to pink collared work.. maybe women tend to be well suited. BUT the fact that it is paid less is pretty dumb in the first place. I dont know how it evolved that people in caring positions get paid less.. That type of work is just as equally valuable as a construction job or a job like.. a software developer.

The fact that a personal support worker, for example, is paid much less than someone at a desk job, is pretty ridiculous. Both are equally valuable. I suppose the fact that schooling is involved for one.. makes it so that jobs that require a higher education should get paid more.

But that's still not very fair. Some people cant afford it, and some, who are women, don't have the time for school because their partners got them pregnant.

Schooling should be free anyway.
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Old 30th July 2020, 11:40 PM   #461172  /  #14353
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That way, people can go to school based on their desires and what might be something they'd call their calling. Not based on going for something that will yield the greatest pay salary.

Probably people end up going into things because they're looking in the long run, for a good pay out. But that wont necessarily make them a happy person.

So you end up with people sitting at desk jobs, as an example, that hate their lives because they're miserable and not something that it truly what they want.

And depression and mental illness costs money. Not to mention the fact that so many years of ones live is spent being stuck in a career that they are not suited for.
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Old 31st July 2020, 02:20 AM   #461182  /  #14354
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
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LOL tyranny - that's rich!
You would recognize it as such, and you would even go on about it at length, if left and right were reversed.
What is the 'tyranny'?

Is it not being allowed to continually attack federal buildings?

Maybe we mean different things by 'tyranny'...
Perhaps. The sorts of things I had in mind (before any "attacks" on federal buildings happened) included (1) the toddler-in-chief unilaterally deciding that protests were no longer allowed in Portland,
Um...according to those living in Portland, protests have been ongoing for decades. Also, trying to break stuff, attack police or such, is not 'protest' but something else.

My guess is, that you get most of your information from the 'Friends of Epstein' though, so no surprise that you have a skewed view.
Quote:
(2) thugs in federal police uniforms beating the shit out of peaceful protesters,
Looks like a claim that should have some backup.

Did the 'Friends of Epstein' tell you that stuff? Or did you get it from local sources on the ground in Portland?
Quote:
(3) thugs in federal police uniforms beating the shit out of people who merely asked why they were beating the shit out of peaceful protesters, (4) thugs in federal police uniforms beating the shit out of medics who were merely trying to treat the peaceful protesters who had had the shit beaten out of them.

All that is perfectly ok, because "law and order", right?
I'll take the word of people living there, with their real names and reputations on the line, over the 'Friends of Epstein' (news media companies and Hollywood)

The funny thing to me, is that the regular, shitty attacks on federal buildings don't come into this for you.

I know what Weinstein thought about it, but why not give me your take. Maybe it's more factual...

The rioters and protesters in Portland are presumably smart. Why would such smart people attack federal buildings, but ineffectually?

They break windows, throw burning garbage, try to pry off the plywood which has been installed over the windows...all pretty useless, feeble attacks, really. Especially considering the ones doing it are, no doubt, smart and resourceful.

So why the shitty attacks? I would understand an effective attack, or an extremely forceful attack, but why are they doing these lame-ass, low-energy attacks?
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Old 31st July 2020, 02:31 AM   #461184  /  #14355
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
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Originally Posted by Mantisdreamz View Post
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Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
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Originally Posted by Mantisdreamz View Post
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They have the right to try anything. They don't have the 'right' to equal outcomes.
"They?" Look at the way you speak about females. Like they are others. Maybe you don't do it intentionally, but ahh.. kinda says something.

Quote:
Females make different choices than males, and it shows in many of their privileges.
What privileges?
More years of life.

There are many, since everyone has privilege, and struggle, but that one is a pretty solid one.
Quote:

Quote:
From their longer life expectancy, to their lack of representation in many fields. It's their choices, and often (in my opinion) their*better*choices
I don't understand this.
In societies where sex equality is the most progressive, women choose pink collar jobs more often.

Most of those jobs pay less. They aren't stupid - they know it going in. It's a choice they make willingly. It's a choice YOU made willingly.

Your earning potential (lifetime) is diminished by the time you took raising the kids instead of working 90 hour weeks at your out-side the home career.

I think it's a good choice, which will pay you well, though not in dollars.
The time I took for raising kids was not something that was really my choice, and for a lot, something that just ends up happening.
It's a choice. Just like the men often choose to check out.

Choice is ugly, often uncompromising.
Quote:
But it's up to the females to take on the "chore" because we are the ones who get pregnant. It's not just one person's choice... the male should have the same responsibility. But due to biology, they don't.
In my region, any woman can end a pregnancy and also choose to abandon the 'chore'.

Quote:

Because of something that's out of our hands, we shouldn't have negative consequences.
How exactly is it 'out of your hands'?

I understand that shitty choices can trap a person in a parental role, but again, that is choice, unless you are talking about sexual assault and an inability to access health care.
Quote:

On the mom's forum, I've seen quite a few women complain about the bias when they get back to work. One main thing, for instance, is that since the woman is back to work, they will still need to time to pump breastmilk throughout the day. And that seems to be frowned upon. Taking time out of the work day to do that. That's completely unfair though. It's not our "fault" that its necessary and then are deemed as lower productive type employee. It goes to show a bit of a lack of understanding.
It doesn't matter whose at 'fault', if you have a business, and need production, those actions get in the way.

My best bosses have recognized this, and made room in the office for babies. (it makes the most sense, if you want the best people to work for you)

That isn't always practical, though. Time away from production is away from production. Lots of jobs rely on a VERY competitive use of labour resources.

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Originally Posted by Mantisdreamz View Post
Also, when you refer to pink collared work.. maybe women tend to be well suited. BUT the fact that it is paid less is pretty dumb in the first place. I dont know how it evolved that people in caring positions get paid less.. That type of work is just as equally valuable as a construction job or a job like.. a software developer.
Care jobs don't scale AT ALL.

If you are able to care for 10 babies, that's IT. If someone gave you a thousand babies to handle, you would be unable to keep up. Many other jobs 'scale up' much better, so there is a lot more money to be made.

Quote:

The fact that a personal support worker, for example, is paid much less than someone at a desk job, is pretty ridiculous. Both are equally valuable. I suppose the fact that schooling is involved for one.. makes it so that jobs that require a higher education should get paid more.
Both are not equally valuable. Think of the last PSW you knew. Would you rather they handled your real estate transaction? How about your legal representation?

Jobs are different, and some pay better. It doesn't make sense in some areas, but that doesn't stop people from choosing them.

You could get a PSW job with no training, or a Chief Medical Officer job with a couple hundred thousand of student debt, and 10 years on the job.

Shouldn't they be paid different?
Quote:

But that's still not very fair. Some people cant afford it, and some, who are women, don't have the time for school because their partners got them pregnant.

Schooling should be free anyway.
Their partners didn't 'get them' pregnant. They have a choice, and can choose to not have babies, or choose partners who make better sense.

Haven't you heard - women can marry women now. It's their choice.

As to 'free school', that would make sense in some ways. I don't think 'free education for all' can work, but I like the idea of supporting people as far as they can exploit that support.
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zel, would you consider not enabling the shitting up of our forum by engaging in these conversations?

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Old 31st July 2020, 02:44 AM   #461185  /  #14356
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
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I guess you seem really against it, and you talk about it a lot.. well, from what I've seen. Whereas, I think it makes sense to still keep it in mind, like the back of your mind (for females), since there still does seem to be some issues. So to answer, it probably won't be fully disbanded for awhile. It's kind of like a safety mechanism I think. Maybe there is fear that if it's not maintained, to an extent, things will devolve back into male dominated culture.
Compared to most, I DO talk about it a lot. What might really surprise you, is how people are treated who advocate for more fairness. For example, domestic violence is often painted as women being victims, and men being perpetrators. It is certainly what the police are trained to assess.

So ask yourself why that is, if women are 'equal' to men? When I use 'equal' this time, I mean equally likely to be shitty, abusive assholes.

Since women are just as likely (or maybe more likely) to be abusive, why are the stats so tricky to find?

Go find same-sex abuse stats, and you'll find that females are MUCH worse for it than males, and that is without the normal male/female dynamic.

When you see how far off the mark most of the 'status of women' council's are in their reporting around DV statistics, you might also start thinking it's important.

Or, because you are currently served well by everything from law enforcement to family courts, you might think everything is just fine.

It is, unless you are a man experiencing those issues. Then things suck, in a systemic, or institutional way.
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Old 31st July 2020, 04:05 AM   #461186  /  #14357
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Sorry, my bad. I shouldn't have interacted with you. Your responses are blaring.. like, you sound like you could easily be shouting. I dont know why you have something in you that makes you come across as always on edge and defensive.. but you do. I'm not going to interact with that.. sorry.
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Old 31st July 2020, 04:07 AM   #461187  /  #14358
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I can't read what you're saying even if I wanted to. Your tone is terrible.
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Old 31st July 2020, 04:16 AM   #461188  /  #14359
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it is, unless you are a man experiencing those issues. Then things suck, in a systemic, or institutional way
I can understand that. But why are you so mad? I didn't bring this up. You did.. and obviously you've got some issues with regards to it. Take it up with a therapist.
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Old 31st July 2020, 04:28 AM   #461189  /  #14360
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And I know that, even if i responded to your points (i don't mind being debated and proven wrong), you will just carry on and not hear anything other than your own stubborn viewpoints. You cant be argued with. I don't have the time for nonsense and debating to no end, with someone that doesn't want to honestly take in all opinions and be considerate. There's no point in engaging with you.
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Old 31st July 2020, 04:55 AM   #461190  /  #14361
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You could get a PSW job with no training, or a Chief Medical Officer job with a couple hundred thousand of student debt, and 10 years on the job.

Shouldn't they be paid different?
If you listened to what I said.. I was thinking that, if schooling was free, then there wouldn't be an issue about salary... because debt wouldn't come into play. Chief Medical Officer does require more school than a PSW, but there's a different caliber and if someone takes it upon themselves to get themselves to that degree then sure, they should be paid a bit more. But only because the amount of schooling they did, and the time they took for the schooling should be reflected. But overall, I don't think there should be a huge wage difference. Only to the extent of what a few extra years in school would have cost them in not being in the workforce a few years earlier.

I just don't think they should be paid an exorbitant amount compared to others.

I know from experience, that white collared workers get paid way more than they should, in comparison to blue or "pink" collared workers. For the amount of work they do
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Old 31st July 2020, 06:16 AM   #461192  /  #14362
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
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I can't read what you're saying even if I wanted to. Your tone is terrible.
Yes, and I've asked others for ways to convey these facts (which are NOT mine) in a way that was more acceptable, but they also fall silent.

Facing the real facts is always unpleasant. I don't mind if you blame me for them, even though all I'm guilty of is saying them ungracefully.
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Old 31st July 2020, 06:30 AM   #461193  /  #14363
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
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I can't read what you're saying even if I wanted to. Your tone is terrible.
My TONE?

Your hat is smelly. I don't let that get in the way of trying to understand you.

Look, you are reading anger that I don't mean to convey, maybe because of misunderstanding.

This started because I have no respect for feminism, the political ideology. It wanders over many weird places, many of which are awful (though I didn't invent them) so maybe take a step back and see if we really do disagree on something significant.

It isn't easy to do over something as vague as a political ideology and whether it is 'good'. To make a clear disagreement, we would be able to bet on it somehow, and both of us would be willing to enter the bet.

This would ensure that we both really agreed on what we disagreed about.

You might think me mean to say, for instance, that having babies is a choice, and taking responsibility for raising them is a choice. It IS mean. Believe me, I know.

My Mom and Dad adopted me, and shortly after, he abandoned us. She CHOSE to stay around and do her best with us. CHOSE to adopt us with a partner (who abandoned her) in the first place.

CHOSE all of that, condemning herself to a stupid spiral of problems.

I love her dearly, and respect what she chose to undertake. What she chose to give up to complete the task.

If I pretended she didn't choose, but instead was tricked into taking responsibility for my sister and I, it wouldn't really add anything. I know she could have checked out at several points. Stayed anyway. Call it stupid, or call it heroic. I've called it both over the years, mainly settling on the latter.
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Old 31st July 2020, 07:16 AM   #461194  /  #14364
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I said earlier, that I'm not a feminist and stated some things that I agreed with, with regards to the metoo movement. All I said was my reasoning on why I think it still lingers on to this day. But then you brought up about women violence towards men.. which Is a completely different topic.

That has nothing to do with feminism.. and I agree that no violence should be accepted whether it be from a man or woman.

I was talking about equality in general, and also in the workplace. I think we should see each other as different, but equally valuable for whatever roles each gender takes.

When I said you should take it up with a therapist... i was kind of serious, because you slide violence into the conversation.. and that's not something that's relevant. In this topic.

Just don't get why you bring it up . Makes it seem like you have some turmoil with regards to that.

Feminism doesnt equal to it being okay for a woman to abuse a man. That's terrible.. and any abuse, whether it be male to female, or female to man, is not okay. Anyone who does that needs to check themselves.
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Old 31st July 2020, 07:20 AM   #461195  /  #14365
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I don't want to get angry with you and I feel bad for doing so.
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Old 31st July 2020, 07:40 AM   #461196  /  #14366
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I said earlier, that I'm not a feminist and stated some things that I agreed with, with regards to the metoo movement. All I said was my reasoning on why I think it still lingers on to this day. But then you brought up about women violence towards men.. which Is a completely different topic.
Maybe I skipped a bit, but they are absolutely connected.

My point was that there is as much toxic femininity, as toxic masculinity. People are equal in shittiness (and excellence).

The me too movement exposed a lot of horrible stuff (like the casting couch) that needed to be dealt with.

It also exposed a lot of things we have always accepted as a society (like the casting couch) that we would rather not deal with.

Quote:

That has nothing to do with feminism.. and I agree that no violence should be accepted whether it be from a man or woman.
Feminists have, via the status of women council (in Canada) massaged and managed the stats which control funding for support for those who suffer domestic violence.

A man named Earl Silverberg tried to open the first shelter for male victims of DV. He faltered and failed a bit, trying to get a court case on the record, so he could have the unfairness documented. He failed. (threatened a judge ridiculously, then they dropped the charges)

He took his own life before succeeding in his mission. Still makes an interesting story, if you can stomach the ugly bits.

Tragic that he found so little support. I'm one of the millions of us who didn't help him.
Quote:
I was talking about equality in general, and also in the workplace. I think we should see each other as different, but equally valuable for whatever roles each gender takes.
I think people have a common value, but we absolutely value people differently.

I would favour my kids, you would likely favour yours. It isn't terrible. Usually.
Quote:

When I said you should take it up with a therapist... i was kind of serious, because you slide violence into the conversation.. and that's not something that's relevant. In this topic.
It is, and I thank you for the concern, but what's wrong with talking about violence?

One of the major problems connected with feminism is the regular effort to make it look like men have a monopoly on domestic violence. Having known several victims, and how they are treated, I have a bit of extra sympathy.
Quote:

Just don't get why you bring it up . Makes it seem like you have some turmoil with regards to that.

Feminism doesnt equal to it being okay for a woman to abuse a man. That's terrible.. and any abuse, whether it be male to female, or female to man, is not okay. Anyone who does that needs to check themselves.
Abuse comes in many kinds. Physical abuse seems to be dominated by men. Not because they start it more often, but because they are so much more effective when they do.

Women, as a group are significantly weaker physically, but also less competitive in other ways. Making things 'equal' for them would be disaster.

Take running as an example far from violence. In the average marathon race, how many men usually cross the finish line before the first woman?

Equality would mean that they would usually place well below the top athletes, and thought it isn't 'equal', it is WELL worth developing female running as a sport in Canada. DESPITE it not being fair. If you don't think the slower female athletes deserve more support despite not being competitive with the really fast runners, then take some time to find Lani Marchant's address to Canada's House of Commons. She explains it at length, and almost simply enough for a politician to understand.

When you say you think things should be equal, you should clarify if you mean equality of opportunity, or equality of outcome.

It makes a big difference, I think.
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Old 31st July 2020, 07:46 AM   #461197  /  #14367
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
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I don't want to get angry with you and I feel bad for doing so.
Go ahead, and don't feel bad.

Talking is nearly as dangerous as thinking. More so, since the addition of other people increases the chance for misunderstanding.

Like you might think that I must treat the women around me terribly. That's not so. I have some of the most amazing people around me, and can talk to most of the closest about these things. But we have the advantage of seeing each other smile, or offering each other a drink to ease the awkwardness of something difficult.
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Old 31st July 2020, 08:22 AM   #461198  /  #14368
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I wasn't talking about equal in the sense of doing marathon races or strength wise. Equality in the sense where each gender is valued for their input to society. Some women, taking on a care giver role, or some women taking on other roles, like in the sciences or medical field. Doesn't matter which role, in particular. Or same with men, they shouldn't necessarily be seen as only performing in a role that requires strength. It all crosses over. Some women that night be good in technical jobs, while there are some men that may be better therapists.

Also, when I talked about abuse, I wasn't referring to just physical. I also meant psychological.

I do think that feminism calls for women to stand up for themselves and speak out about domestic violence and enables them to have the confidence to do so. But while that is important, I don't think anyone is stopping a man to speak out as well.

I see what you mean though.. a man doing so might be a little less, ordinary, for a lack of a better word.

You more hear about women with these kinds of issues.

I think though, violence on males is becoming more spoken about nowadays, and is something that is also considered a problem.

Males just don't speak about it all that often.

But maybe they should.
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Old 31st July 2020, 08:26 AM   #461199  /  #14369
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I never once thought that you treat your females around you poorly. I don't think you're a monster !
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Old 31st July 2020, 09:50 AM   #461200  /  #14370
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You are the kid in the sandbox that has no one to play with
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Old 31st July 2020, 11:52 AM   #461204  /  #14371
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: a peninsula in the North Atlantic
For nearly any "-ism" word, the people who are pro-____-ism and the people who are anti-____-ism mean completely different things by the word they're arguing about.
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Old 31st July 2020, 02:56 PM   #461207  /  #14372
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
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Originally Posted by Mantisdreamz View Post
I wasn't talking about equal in the sense of doing marathon races or strength wise. Equality in the sense where each gender is valued for their input to society. Some women, taking on a care giver role, or some women taking on other roles, like in the sciences or medical field. Doesn't matter which role, in particular. Or same with men, they shouldn't necessarily be seen as only performing in a role that requires strength. It all crosses over. Some women that night be good in technical jobs, while there are some men that may be better therapists.

Also, when I talked about abuse, I wasn't referring to just physical. I also meant psychological.

I do think that feminism calls for women to stand up for themselves and speak out about domestic violence and enables them to have the confidence to do so. But while that is important, I don't think anyone is stopping a man to speak out as well.

I see what you mean though.. a man doing so might be a little less, ordinary, for a lack of a better word.

You more hear about women with these kinds of issues.

I think though, violence on males is becoming more spoken about nowadays, and is something that is also considered a problem.

Males just don't speak about it all that often.

But maybe they should.
I know of a few reasons why they don't. (look up the white feather campaign, for a historical example)

When you say 'equality', you still haven't said what kind. We (you and I) would treasure our own kids over strangers. Lots of people would value people who work over those who don't. Almost everyone values the criminals less than the non-criminals.

And all of us would value a trained oncologist over an astrologer, if we discovered we had cancer.

I get some of what you are saying. Humans should have a bunch of 'value' which doesn't attach to their performance. There is a lot of value beyond that though, and people earn their place. (or don't)

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For nearly any "-ism" word, the people who are pro-____-ism and the people who are anti-____-ism mean completely different things by the word they're arguing about.
Yup...I think feminism is dogshit or worse, but some of my dearest friends are avowed feminists. It's fun to back-and-forth with them. Roast and get roasted.

One spot that sticks with me is this... ( thanks, Ms. H!)

I think whores and whoring are fine. A person wants to rent out their holes, they are welcome to and it is a respectable job. (though complicated by harsh laws and opprobrium)

Ms. H. pointed out that her clients sometimes were taken advantage of by local cab drivers, who would, in exchange for sex acts, give them a ride somewhere, or a bag of chips.

So I think being a whore is ok, but somehow, that cab driver paying that low a fee (to a vulnerable adult woman) strikes me as horrible and somehow wrong.

It hasn't changed my mind exactly, but it's made me think about that 'selling sex is ok' position for years.
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Old 31st July 2020, 04:09 PM   #461210  /  #14373
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Old 31st July 2020, 07:59 PM   #461216  /  #14374
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I wasn't talking about equal...
I think whores and whoring are fine. A person wants to rent out their holes, they are welcome to and it is a respectable job.
I just took in a podcast which relates.

To equality because the majority of the 'sugar babies' are young, hot chicks. The majority of the 'sugar daddies' are older men with disproportionate power.

Weinstein calls to defund the universities, and points out some of the worst of it, with his example of himself being an early target (he started university at 16). He was outraged that they tried to trap him into debt without being clear or honest about the calculation. His daughter is now entering university early. Now, though, in the US, it is nearly impossible to get out of student debt, even by bankrupcy.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000486557613

Universities are gross. I'm glad I wasn't lured in in the 80's. People can do well with it, and have, but so much bloat...
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Old 31st July 2020, 09:40 PM   #461220  /  #14375
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Wtf?

All I got from that was Quantum Biology = Middle-age Dating
(must watch or skip to the end to observe what I got)
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