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Old 26th July 2018, 05:59 PM   #434892  /  #1
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Should Activists Determine University Curriculum (Canada-slanted)





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC64ZyRRjCM
Above is a video of Prof. Rick Mehta opining on this question, and sharing what I think is an unfortunately rare perspective.
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Old 26th July 2018, 08:06 PM   #434898  /  #2
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Academic heads should determine curriculum with the professors in their department
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Old 26th July 2018, 08:35 PM   #434901  /  #3
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I hate watching videos, so I don't know what the "unfortunately rare perspective" is here.

But: The right wing has (for a long time) been peddling some bogus narrative about left-wing activists controlling university discourse. They claim to be concerned about "freedom of speech", which sounds all very noble and good, except that (as we're seeding south of the border) they like to use government power (when they have it) to crack down on university independence and force a more rightward-leaning narrative. So their claim to be concerned about "freedom of speech" is not made in good faith; it's just a cover story for trying to use political means to do what they accuse the left of doing (only more so).
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Old 26th July 2018, 08:40 PM   #434903  /  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post
I hate watching videos, so I don't know what the "unfortunately rare perspective" is here.

But: The right wing has (for a long time) been peddling some bogus narrative about left-wing activists controlling university discourse. They claim to be concerned about "freedom of speech", which sounds all very noble and good, except that (as we're seeding south of the border) they like to use government power (when they have it) to crack down on university independence and force a more rightward-leaning narrative. So their claim to be concerned about "freedom of speech" is not made in good faith; it's just a cover story for trying to use political means to do what they accuse the left of doing (only more so).
It's very vague, what you have said.

Prof. Mehta does not seem at all 'right wing' to me, but then again, I have listened to his account, rather than just what people say about him.

This provides an example of government money/power/influence aligning against an unpopular opinion. If you want a deeper insight into it, maybe watch the video, or write to Prof. Mehta for his take on it (rather than a report or summary)
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Old 26th July 2018, 09:09 PM   #434904  /  #5
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Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post
I hate watching videos, so I don't know what the "unfortunately rare perspective" is here.

But: The right wing has (for a long time) been peddling some bogus narrative about left-wing activists controlling university discourse. They claim to be concerned about "freedom of speech", which sounds all very noble and good, except that (as we're seeding south of the border) they like to use government power (when they have it) to crack down on university independence and force a more rightward-leaning narrative. So their claim to be concerned about "freedom of speech" is not made in good faith; it's just a cover story for trying to use political means to do what they accuse the left of doing (only more so).
It's very vague, what you have said.

Prof. Mehta does not seem at all 'right wing' to me, but then again, I have listened to his account, rather than just what people say about him.

This provides an example of government money/power/influence aligning against an unpopular opinion. If you want a deeper insight into it, maybe watch the video, or write to Prof. Mehta for his take on it (rather than a report or summary)
You should check out his twitter account.

I somewhat agree with Bro.D, the right have jumped at the chance to proclaim themselves the defenders of free speech, but to me it seems that this is a front to try and get un-tested questionable claims taught in universities without going through the peer-review process.

However, if it is true that conservative faculty members are massively under-represented then this is a problem. There are benefits to hearing how other people with different perspectives would solve a named problem. If university students are being deprived of that then yes, it's a problem.
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Old 26th July 2018, 09:22 PM   #434905  /  #6
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Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
You should check out his twitter account.
I have, so don't get your point...
Quote:
I somewhat agree with Bro.D, the right have jumped at the chance to proclaim themselves the defenders of free speech, but to me it seems that this is a front to try and get un-tested questionable claims taught in universities without going through the peer-review process.
Has 'de-colonization' been through this 'peer-review' process? Or was it simply ordered at the highest levels of academia/government without any debate?
Quote:
However, if it is true that conservative faculty members are massively under-represented then this is a problem.
I know you as a conservative, so I'm glad you are taking this to heart.
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Old 26th July 2018, 09:47 PM   #434906  /  #7
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Has 'de-colonization' been through this 'peer-review' process? Or was it simply ordered at the highest levels of academia/government without any debate?
Don't know. This is not a topic I'm at all familiar with.
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Old 26th July 2018, 09:56 PM   #434907  /  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
Has 'de-colonization' been through this 'peer-review' process? Or was it simply ordered at the highest levels of academia/government without any debate?
Don't know. This is not a topic I'm at all familiar with.
It is one of the issues he has tripped over. He said things about it, and they might be some of what he is being 'administered' over. He can't talk much about what is happening, because the university is using their confidentiality cloaks for themselves and the complaintant(s) and it makes it tough for him to speak freely. I think he is being investigated about statements like that.
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Old 26th July 2018, 10:11 PM   #434908  /  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
However, if it is true that conservative faculty members are massively under-represented then this is a problem. There are benefits to hearing how other people with different perspectives would solve a named problem. If university students are being deprived of that then yes, it's a problem.
Is there similarly a problem if flat-earther faculty members are also massively under-represented?
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Old 26th July 2018, 10:20 PM   #434909  /  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
However, if it is true that conservative faculty members are massively under-represented then this is a problem. There are benefits to hearing how other people with different perspectives would solve a named problem. If university students are being deprived of that then yes, it's a problem.
Is there similarly a problem if flat-earther faculty members are also massively under-represented?
There is no evidence I have seen, which suggests that flat-earthers are proportionally under-represented in academia.

You could make it your pH-d thesis!
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Old 26th July 2018, 10:25 PM   #434910  /  #11
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There is no evidence I have seen, which suggests that flat-earthers are proportionally under-represented in academia.
The question was hypothetical.

I'll make up some numbers. Suppose flat-earthers are 12% of the general population, but 0.2% of academic faculty. Just hypothetically.

Would that be a problem?
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Old 26th July 2018, 10:28 PM   #434911  /  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
There is no evidence I have seen, which suggests that flat-earthers are proportionally under-represented in academia.
The question was hypothetical.

I'll make up some numbers. Suppose flat-earthers are 12% of the general population, but 0.2% of academic faculty. Just hypothetically.

Would that be a problem?
Who knows. Probably would be, to flat-earthers.

I think if you had watched the video, I would value your criticism of its ideas a bit more. As it is, I have to keep resisting the urge to call you 'Jerome'.
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Old 26th July 2018, 10:32 PM   #434912  /  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post
The question was hypothetical.

I'll make up some numbers. Suppose flat-earthers are 12% of the general population, but 0.2% of academic faculty. Just hypothetically.

Would that be a problem?
Who knows. Probably would be, to flat-earthers.
Would it be the kind of problem that round-earthers ought to try to address/undo, for the sake of (some sort of) fairness?
Quote:
I think if you had watched the video, I would value your criticism of its ideas a bit more.
I don't claim to have made any criticism of the video's ideas at all.
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Old 26th July 2018, 10:35 PM   #434913  /  #14
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It's great you are willing to go on and on about how the right is a problem...without knowing what subject matter was discussed in the video (de-colonization efforts among them)

Do keep it up. I'm learning a lot about your way of thinking.
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Old 26th July 2018, 10:47 PM   #434914  /  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
However, if it is true that conservative faculty members are massively under-represented then this is a problem. There are benefits to hearing how other people with different perspectives would solve a named problem. If university students are being deprived of that then yes, it's a problem.
Is there similarly a problem if flat-earther faculty members are also massively under-represented?
What would be the nature of the problem that would require the presence of flat earthers to give input?
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Old 26th July 2018, 10:58 PM   #434915  /  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
However, if it is true that conservative faculty members are massively under-represented then this is a problem. There are benefits to hearing how other people with different perspectives would solve a named problem. If university students are being deprived of that then yes, it's a problem.
Is there similarly a problem if flat-earther faculty members are also massively under-represented?
What would be the nature of the problem that would require the presence of flat earthers to give input?
What would be the nature of the problem that would require the presence of conservatives to give input?
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Old 26th July 2018, 11:01 PM   #434916  /  #17
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Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
It's great you are willing to go on and on about how the right is a problem...without knowing what subject matter was discussed in the video (de-colonization efforts among them)
So now you're suggesting (a) that repeating a hypothetical question about flat-earthers is somehow equivalent to "go[ing] on and on about how the right is a problem", and (b) that this particular video (which I haven't even pretended to address) is the definitive political work, so that if I haven't watched this video then I'm not entitled to have any political opinions?
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Old 26th July 2018, 11:05 PM   #434917  /  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
There is no evidence I have seen, which suggests that flat-earthers are proportionally under-represented in academia.
The question was hypothetical.

I'll make up some numbers. Suppose flat-earthers are 12% of the general population, but 0.2% of academic faculty. Just hypothetically.

Would that be a problem?
Are you asking this in good faith? It seems a rather extreme example to latch on to.

An economics department that was dominated by economists from the Austrian school. Problem?
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Old 27th July 2018, 12:12 AM   #434920  /  #19
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We just went through an experience where a right wing think tank wanted to fund a Studies of Western Civilization course at ANU
http://www.anu.edu.au/news/all-news/...ints-on-ramsay

Quote:
So what went wrong? We withdrew from negotiations because there were irreconcilable differences over the governance of the proposed program, not its substance. We were willing to accept the Ramsay Centre having a voice in curriculum design and staff appointments. But only a voice, not a controlling influence. From the outset, however, the Centre has been locked in to an extraordinarily prescriptive micro-management approach to the proposed program, unprecedented in our experience, embodied in a draft Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) of some 30 pages with another 40 pages of detailed annexures.

It has insisted on a partnership management committee to oversee every aspect of the curriculum and its implementation - with equal numbers from both the Ramsay Centre and ANU, meaning an effective Ramsay veto.

It has been unwilling to accept our own draft curriculum, and has refused to accept our preferred name for the degree ('Western Civilisation Studies. While acknowledging that any curriculum would have to be endorsed by the ANU Academic Board, it has made clear that to be acceptable to the Ramsay Centre it would have to find favour with the joint management committee - with its representatives being able to sit in the classes that we teach and undertake "health checks" on the courses and the teachers.

It became clear that there are fundamental differences in our respective conceptions of the role of a university. The Centre has gone so far as to insist on the removal of "academic freedom" as a shared objective for the program: this remains in the draft MOU as an ANU objective, not a Ramsay one. For us academic freedom doesn't mean freedom to underperform or to teach without regard to the disciplines or agreed objectives of a particular syllabus. But it does mean appointment or retention of staff on the basis of their demonstrated academic merit, not political or ideological preference.
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp....onomy-anu-says
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Old 27th July 2018, 12:39 AM   #434921  /  #20
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Originally Posted by Facetious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post
I'll make up some numbers. Suppose flat-earthers are 12% of the general population, but 0.2% of academic faculty. Just hypothetically.

Would that be a problem?
Are you asking this in good faith?
Yes! I'm trying to understand your basis for declaring a "problem" when some demographic is under-represented (relative to the general population) in academic faculty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious
It seems a rather extreme example to latch on to.
How so?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Facetious
An economics department that was dominated by economists from the Austrian school. Problem?
Maybe, but a different sort of problem. Previously we were talking about academia in general having a different demographic mix than the general populace does. This latest example is about a specific uni having a different demographic mix than academia in general does.

Anyway, whatever problems we perceive (or imagine that we perceive), we also have to make sure that our proposed cure isn't worse than the disease. Government meddling in academic affairs (as the Conservatives now want to do) is generally a bad idea IMO.
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Old 27th July 2018, 04:31 PM   #434933  /  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
It's great you are willing to go on and on about how the right is a problem...without knowing what subject matter was discussed in the video (de-colonization efforts among them)
So now you're suggesting (a) that repeating a hypothetical question about flat-earthers is somehow equivalent to "go[ing] on and on about how the right is a problem", and (b) that this particular video (which I haven't even pretended to address) is the definitive political work, so that if I haven't watched this video then I'm not entitled to have any political opinions?
No, but without watching the video (about the OP) but instead jumping in with a few immediate posts about how the 'right' is somehow doing some bad things tells me about the depth of your understanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post
Yes! I'm trying to understand your basis for declaring a "problem" when some demographic is under-represented (relative to the general population) in academic faculty.
Is it a problem if all the faculty publicly support de-colonization, but the subject is not open for discussion?

Is it a problem if racism is described as only the actions of one 'race'?

The problem Prof. Mehta describes is one of being silenced and bullied for having different opinions than the publicly showcased ones.

They aren't willing to discuss anything, just making efforts to silence and punish those who don't toe the line.

I bet it's for dollars. The shittiest things are often about money rather than any ideals.
Quote:
This latest example is about a specific uni having a different demographic mix than academia in general does.
It's almost like they are teaching that only approved political positions on certain issues are allowed.

If you disagree, why not look up some of those contentious subjects, and see how they are received at universities today.
Quote:

Anyway, whatever problems we perceive (or imagine that we perceive), we also have to make sure that our proposed cure isn't worse than the disease. Government meddling in academic affairs (as the Conservatives now want to do) is generally a bad idea IMO.
In Canada, schools are funded by the (leftie) government, who fund (leftie) professors, programs and projects. More to the point of this video, they use those government funds, agencies and investigators to harry anyone who publicly disagrees.

Good thing you are on the side of government, or you might be frustrated, too.
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Old 27th July 2018, 05:42 PM   #434941  /  #22
Brother Daniel
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Daniel View Post
So now you're suggesting (a) that repeating a hypothetical question about flat-earthers is somehow equivalent to "go[ing] on and on about how the right is a problem", and (b) that this particular video (which I haven't even pretended to address) is the definitive political work, so that if I haven't watched this video then I'm not entitled to have any political opinions?
No, but without watching the video (about the OP) but instead jumping in with a few immediate posts about how the 'right' is somehow doing some bad things tells me about the depth of your understanding.
"Without watching the video" would be a relevant variable to bring up if I were commenting on the video. But I'm not. So you're not making any sense.
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Old 27th July 2018, 05:46 PM   #434944  /  #23
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I hate watching videos, so I don't know what the "unfortunately rare perspective" is here.

But: The right wing has (for a long time) been peddling some bogus narrative about left-wing activists controlling university discourse.
You jumped in, dodged the video, then began taking a position without knowing what was discussed in the video, or what the Rick Mehta case is about.

But the right wing has a bogus narrative!!!

Yours isn't bogus at all. Uninformed, irrelevant and missing the main subject maybe, politically biased certainly, but not bogus.
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Old 27th July 2018, 05:58 PM   #434945  /  #24
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You jumped in, dodged the video, then began taking a position without knowing what was discussed in the video, or what the Rick Mehta case is about.
And that would be worth commenting about if I claimed to be commenting on the video, or on the Rick Mehta case. But I made no such claim. So again it's not at all clear what you're whining about.
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Old 27th July 2018, 06:06 PM   #434946  /  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
You jumped in, dodged the video, then began taking a position without knowing what was discussed in the video, or what the Rick Mehta case is about.
And that would be worth commenting about if I claimed to be commenting on the video, or on the Rick Mehta case. But I made no such claim. So again it's not at all clear what you're whining about.
I'm not whining, just not valuing your 'contribution' here.

I know you think the right is wrong. Have you anything else to contribute to the subject?
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