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Old 23rd February 2012, 08:04 PM   #25042  /  #1
Grumps
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A Song of Ice and Fire

Anybody else feel that this series is just built around the idea of bringing the reader down?

It's taken the idea of 'low fantasy' to new highs, as it were. It's a series where, really, nothing is certain.

I read all the books in one sitting last year, and have just become increasingly fascinated with the way it's been written. Nothing is stable, not even the reader's opinion of certain characters.


Spoiler
Take the story of 'The Hound' and the 'The Mountain'. It's a battle that should have taken place, something that needed to happen... but it never does. The Hound is left to die by infection, The Mountain is poisoned some time after. Very unremarkable deaths in what really was quite a dramatic conflict between brothers


It seems like every character worth knowing, worth paying attention to, dies just when they reach their peak - as if Martin killed them off to preserve that image you have of them.

Most of the wrongs in the series are never righted, the revenge and the "justice" that does occur is bitter and brutal... but you don't care, you're glad that it happened at all.

Can't wait for the next book.
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Old 23rd February 2012, 09:07 PM   #25063  /  #2
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this seems to be becoming the series where nothing really happens . . . for the last couple of books anyways.

I really hope GRRM isn't losing his way . . . and that he doesn't die in the next 25 years it takes to finish the series.
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Old 23rd February 2012, 09:31 PM   #25069  /  #3
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I started reading a Dance With Dragons a few months ago after reading the other four one after the other but I couldn't get into it.

Feeling sympathetic to Jamie didn't fit. The changing of the characters didn't fit. It feels like GRRM is as lost as Bran and his friends. And the religious overtones were getting too much. I preferred it when it was a shakily united kingdom with families that hated each other and the slight whiff of hope in the air.

Killing the characters doesn't bother me any more. I expect something bad to happen to them so it isn't a big surprise when it does.
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Old 23rd February 2012, 09:41 PM   #25074  /  #4
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Know what would be a surprise now? Something good happening to a character we like.
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Old 23rd February 2012, 09:47 PM   #25076  /  #5
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Old 23rd February 2012, 11:19 PM   #25107  /  #6
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Originally Posted by Adenosine View Post
Killing the characters doesn't bother me any more. I expect something bad to happen to them so it isn't a big surprise when it does.
When it seems like a good character dies (as he seems to like to do, leave the reader hanging).. i always flip forth and look for chapters about them, to make sure they actually didn't die.

Like when
Spoiler
Arya takes an axe to the head when running into the Frey castle by Sandor Clegane.


I'm still catching up with a lot of people on this series, and actually just finished A Storm of Swords today.

I was looking up some theories and whatnot, and one that I found interesting, I don't know if it reveals it in later books.. was that Jon's mother was
Spoiler
actually Lyanna Stark and his father was Rhaegar Targaryen.. and Ned took him as a dying promise to his sister. http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html

I didn't mind the character change in Jaime. And was kind of hoping that something between him and Brienne would happen. It does make sense for him to have a huge character shift.


I do agree that he tends to kill a few too many characters though.
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Old 23rd February 2012, 11:36 PM   #25120  /  #7
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Ah, interesting theory. Surely someone would have noticed in Winterfell though.

My biggest problem with the character change was that I started liking him.
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Old 24th February 2012, 12:17 AM   #25151  /  #8
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Ah, interesting theory. Surely someone would have noticed in Winterfell though.

My biggest problem with the character change was that I started liking him.
I think that's what i liked about it! You realized that he kind of evaluated himself and had been close to death so many times, that he kind of stopped caring about everything.. I liked what he wrote for his input in the Kingsguard's knight book.


Why do you think someone in Winterfell would have noticed?

I find it interesting because there's quite a few references in the link for how it could be the case. Even silly ones like, how Mormont's crow stared at him, crowing "King", over again.

At least there was a bit of a happy ending in Storm of Swords, how Jon
Spoiler
became Lord Commander. That was pretty cool.

But. If later on in the books, GRRM kills Samwell Tarly, I'm going to flip my lid!
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Old 24th February 2012, 12:37 AM   #25170  /  #9
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Ah right, I hadn't read the link. I assumed that she was at Winterfell, not elsewhere. Very interesting. I had been wondering at the different readings on Rhaegar.
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Old 24th February 2012, 01:27 AM   #25242  /  #10
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Ah right, I hadn't read the link. I assumed that she was at Winterfell, not elsewhere. Very interesting. I had been wondering at the different readings on Rhaegar.
Yea, it's neat stuff anyway. There's so much stuff going on with these novels.
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Old 13th April 2015, 08:15 PM   #237084  /  #11
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HBO has decided to walk away from The Books In A Big Way. Watched the first four episodes of season 5 (they were leaked, damn people with no respect for copyrights)
and was quite happy with the direction HBO is going, way more happy with their writers than with George RR Martin and his writing himself into corners.
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Old 13th April 2015, 09:36 PM   #237104  /  #12
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Good. Every time he writes himself into a corner he just kills a bunch of characters who have become problems in some gruesome manner.

I mean, it's a solution and no doubt allows him to move forward, albeit slowly, but it's hard on the reader.
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Old 13th April 2015, 09:55 PM   #237115  /  #13
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He needs a ghost writer.
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Old 13th April 2015, 10:27 PM   #237131  /  #14
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Old 13th April 2015, 11:16 PM   #237152  /  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
writing himself into corners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
writes himself into a corner
E.g. pls?
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Old 14th April 2015, 12:48 AM   #237187  /  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
writing himself into corners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
writes himself into a corner
E.g. pls?
I wondered if that was the impetus for the Red Wedding. He had an inordinate number of Starks and Starklings alive and with ongoing vengeance directed plotlines. Meanwhile he had Baratheons and others moving into much broader plotlines relevant to his overall game plan which has to include an ending with dragon riding Targaryens. He did not need that many Starks, they'd just complicate the larger picture as it developed. So, as much fun as they were to write stories about, he likely couldn't envision how to include them coherently into the end of the saga without really screwing up his other characters' trajectories. So he likely worried about that for the length of time it should have taken to write another novel.

Then he just killed them all - and their little dogs too.
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Old 14th April 2015, 01:21 AM   #237214  /  #17
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Idk, Ned was a well developed character and the story line pointed towards we are reading his story, then he was dead at the end of the first book.
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Old 14th April 2015, 09:39 AM   #237365  /  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
writing himself into corners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
writes himself into a corner
E.g. pls?
I wondered if that was the impetus for the Red Wedding. He had an inordinate number of Starks and Starklings alive and with ongoing vengeance directed plotlines. Meanwhile he had Baratheons and others moving into much broader plotlines relevant to his overall game plan which has to include an ending with dragon riding Targaryens. He did not need that many Starks, they'd just complicate the larger picture as it developed. So, as much fun as they were to write stories about, he likely couldn't envision how to include them coherently into the end of the saga without really screwing up his other characters' trajectories. So he likely worried about that for the length of time it should have taken to write another novel.
Don't think so. From memory it was always his intention to kill the Starks, or some of the them, in a shocking and brutal way. The large delays between books was said to be caused by the "Meereenese Knot", ie, the need to have several characters and storylines converge on Meereen at the same time. This includes several characters that aren't in the show (yet?).
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