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Old 22nd August 2019, 09:49 PM   #450073  /  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
Holy shit, Cunt. I hope you're trolling.
Why would you hope for that?

Is it because something about my opinions is uncomfortable?

I mean, you usually go away before even fairly addressing one single point of disagreement, so I don't expect much of you (beyond the gentle heckling)

If you have a point of disagreement, PROVE it to me with a steelman technique. Or just keep bleating and heckling. That's cool too.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:23 PM   #450075  /  #52
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Originally Posted by borealis View Post

Holy shit, Cunt. I hope you're trolling.
what's worse, though?
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Old 23rd August 2019, 12:52 AM   #450079  /  #53
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Exiting with accusations of trolling, because of undefined outrage?
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Old 23rd August 2019, 02:42 AM   #450080  /  #54
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycot..._and_Sanctions
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Old 23rd August 2019, 06:38 AM   #450085  /  #55
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Yeah. That's the group they supported, which got them refused entry to a country.

Did you have another point to make about them?
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:58 AM   #450086  /  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
Yeah. That's the group they supported, which got them refused entry to a country.

Did you have another point to make about them?

It's a facking boycott, that is all it is. There really isn't a group, it's an idea that has been floating around for a very long time, and it hasn't had any real effect except to get Israel's panties in a wad. There is no terrorist group behind it. Israel and Palastinians can't even agree on if it is a good idea or not.



It recently gained traction again when Israel violated the U.N. agreement and continued to support settlers moving onto the West Bank, on the other side of the Wall they built.


The issue here to me is freedom of speech. If you read the Wiki article, you will see that the support of the boycott is varied, because the boycott has never been well defined. Or even followed.



Some people like to claim the boycott is anti-semitic. People in the US tend to do this. But others say people should be able to criticize Israel's policies without being branded as anti-semitic. And yet that is what we are talking about here. Freedom of speech. Freedom to speak out against perceived injustice and to encourage others to take non violent action if they agree.


So yes, my point is you are using a double standard.


I have no fucking idea what gay bars have to do with the issue of Israel continually violating treaties and international agreements to grab land.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 07:48 PM   #450090  /  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
Yeah. That's the group they supported, which got them refused entry to a country.

Did you have another point to make about them?

It's a facking boycott, that is all it is. There really isn't a group, it's an idea that has been floating around for a very long time, and it hasn't had any real effect except to get Israel's panties in a wad. There is no terrorist group behind it. Israel and Palastinians can't even agree on if it is a good idea or not.



It recently gained traction again when Israel violated the U.N. agreement and continued to support settlers moving onto the West Bank, on the other side of the Wall they built.


The issue here to me is freedom of speech. If you read the Wiki article, you will see that the support of the boycott is varied, because the boycott has never been well defined. Or even followed.



Some people like to claim the boycott is anti-semitic. People in the US tend to do this. But others say people should be able to criticize Israel's policies without being branded as anti-semitic. And yet that is what we are talking about here. Freedom of speech. Freedom to speak out against perceived injustice and to encourage others to take non violent action if they agree.


So yes, my point is you are using a double standard.
I'm not using any 'double-standard', just pointing out that is why Israel refused them entry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post


I have no fucking idea what gay bars have to do with the issue of Israel continually violating treaties and international agreements to grab land.
I don't believe you.

This points straight to which society is more tolerant. Just like you refer to Israel as 'religious', while failing to note that Palestine is at least as nutty, religiously.

One is mainly Jewish, the other mainly Muslim.

As an atheist, and apostate, I know exactly which would be more dangerous for me.

I know gays are not the best indicator, but the difference in their acceptance speaks volumes about the difference between the two cultures.

Are you in favour of Muslim rule over Jews? How do Jewish minority communities fare in Muslim-ruled countries?

Or does that not matter?
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:13 PM   #450091  /  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
Yeah. That's the group they supported, which got them refused entry to a country.

Did you have another point to make about them?

It's a facking boycott, that is all it is. There really isn't a group, it's an idea that has been floating around for a very long time, and it hasn't had any real effect except to get Israel's panties in a wad. There is no terrorist group behind it. Israel and Palastinians can't even agree on if it is a good idea or not.



It recently gained traction again when Israel violated the U.N. agreement and continued to support settlers moving onto the West Bank, on the other side of the Wall they built.


The issue here to me is freedom of speech. If you read the Wiki article, you will see that the support of the boycott is varied, because the boycott has never been well defined. Or even followed.



Some people like to claim the boycott is anti-semitic. People in the US tend to do this. But others say people should be able to criticize Israel's policies without being branded as anti-semitic. And yet that is what we are talking about here. Freedom of speech. Freedom to speak out against perceived injustice and to encourage others to take non violent action if they agree.


So yes, my point is you are using a double standard.
I'm not using any 'double-standard', just pointing out that is why Israel refused them entry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post


I have no fucking idea what gay bars have to do with the issue of Israel continually violating treaties and international agreements to grab land.
I don't believe you.

This points straight to which society is more tolerant. Just like you refer to Israel as 'religious', while failing to note that Palestine is at least as nutty, religiously.

One is mainly Jewish, the other mainly Muslim.

As an atheist, and apostate, I know exactly which would be more dangerous for me.

I know gays are not the best indicator, but the difference in their acceptance speaks volumes about the difference between the two cultures.

Are you in favour of Muslim rule over Jews? How do Jewish minority communities fare in Muslim-ruled countries?

Or does that not matter?

Not in this instance it doesn't.



To Recap the conversation:


I posted some emails I received from the Trump Campaign.


You made some disparaging remarks about The Squad, obviously parroting right wing talking points.


I asked you what the Squad did that was so bad.


You brought up that they were refused entry to Israel.


I pointed out that Israel refused them entry for a bullshit reason, and the bad was on Israel for freaking out about what is basically a free speech issue. Not only that, but Israel only banned them from entry after Trump pressured Israel to do so.


You then went off on comparing Israeli society to Muslim societies' acceptance of gay bars, which has nothing to do with The Squad, or the reason they were banned from entry to Israel, or Trump's email, or Israels treatment of the Palastinians.


So, what do you LIKE about Trump and Hate about "The Squad"?


Because from where I sit, you are nothing but an emo parrot. You hear a talking point that resonates with you emotionally, and you accept and repeat it with no examination, thought, research, or any other upper level conscious process involved.


Then you try to move the conversation to another emotional talking point, when you can't defend your position rationally.


If you agree with someone's viewpoint on something you should be able to do the following:


1. Restate their opinion in your own words, with their reasons for holding that view.


2. Give rational reasons why you agree with their opinion, drawing from facts, life experience, history, or other related theories.


If you can't do any of that, you are indeed a emo parrot.


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Old 24th August 2019, 01:51 PM   #450100  /  #59
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They never gave the hats out for free, Zel. IIRC they were even $25 last go-round. $10 is like a steal - probably because he realizes the working class can't afford a $25 hat they already own. Also, isn't it KAG now instead of MAGA? How far we've come in 3 years
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Old 24th August 2019, 04:15 PM   #450101  /  #60
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunt View Post
Are you in favour of Muslim rule over Jews? How do Jewish minority communities fare in Muslim-ruled countries?

Or does that not matter?

Not in this instance it doesn't.
Quote:

To Recap the conversation:


I posted some emails I received from the Trump Campaign.


You made some disparaging remarks about The Squad, obviously parroting right wing talking points.
It's funny how much 'right wing talking points' looks like dismissing the points without addressing them.

But that's ok. You have your bubble, I have mine.
Quote:


I asked you what the Squad did that was so bad.


You brought up that they were refused entry to Israel.
A recent example, and the foreign conflict isn't needed to see how stupid they are.

Look at the green new deal. How many of 'the squad' supported it? How many other democrats?
Quote:


I pointed out that Israel refused them entry for a bullshit reason, and the bad was on Israel for freaking out about what is basically a free speech issue. Not only that, but Israel only banned them from entry after Trump pressured Israel to do so.
They agreed to let Talib visit her nana, but NOT to come supporting BDS.

It was a stunt to get refused, not a 'compassionate visit'.

Politicking.
Quote:


You then went off on comparing Israeli society to Muslim societies' acceptance of gay bars, which has nothing to do with The Squad, or the reason they were banned from entry to Israel, or Trump's email, or Israels treatment of the Palastinians.
Nope, it's just comparing a couple foreign countries on their treatment of the vulnerable.

Quote:


So, what do you LIKE about Trump and Hate about "The Squad"?


Because from where I sit, you are nothing but an emo parrot. You hear a talking point that resonates with you emotionally, and you accept and repeat it with no examination, thought, research, or any other upper level conscious process involved.
How nice of you to say.

Those talking points include pointing out that when someone on the left can't address a point made, they use personal insults and call them 'right wing talking points'.

Good job fitting the cartoon so well.
Quote:
If you agree with someone's viewpoint on something you should be able to do the following:


1. Restate their opinion in your own words, with their reasons for holding that view.


2. Give rational reasons why you agree with their opinion, drawing from facts, life experience, history, or other related theories.


If you can't do any of that, you are indeed a emo parrot.


You know that sounds nice, and I can, but if you really want to be classy, do it for the opinion you disagree with.

Unless of course only your left-wing talking points are allowed in to your posts.

I like Trump because he is not PC. I like that nearly every attack against him, at the bottom, looks like assholes deliberately misunderstanding what he said (such as in the 'very fine people' bullshit line bandied around by the left)

I dislike the squad because they are like a token diversity gang. No men, no whites, every diversity point you could win, I think. Oh, and the green new deal was hilariously stupid.

So can you do it for an opinion you disagree with? Or will you only be doing that for 'politically correct' opinions?
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Old 24th August 2019, 06:51 PM   #450103  /  #61
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So, you don't like the Squad because they are women of color? They weren't elected as The Squad, but as individuals.



And you like Trump because he isn't politically correct?


So your total depth of understanding of issues like economics, immigration, human rights, foreign relations, ect ect comes down to some superficial bullshit?


This is why I dismiss your opinion as parroting talking points, because you have no depth of thought to back them up. Your "reasons" aren't reasons, they are emotional reactions.



Quote:
It's funny how much 'right wing talking points' looks like dismissing the points without addressing them.

The only POINT you brought up was two members being banned from Israel and I FUCKING ADDRESSED IT. All the other crap you said had NO POINT.



So this is just more bullshit from you, trying to pretend the problem here is my bias, when actually it's your inability to THINK.



I can at least THINK, bubble or not, I hadn't paid much attention to the Squad until you brought them up, then I researched what was being said about them.



I also researched what policies they support, and I agree with them on Universal Healthcare, Financial Regulation of Investment Firms, Raising the Minimum Wage, and Shifting the Tax burden More to Passive Income and Inheritance, Protecting the Freedom of the Internet, strengthening EPA protections for Air and Water. I disagree with Trump's actions on all the above issues. Read that again, not on what he SAID, but on what he has Done. I disagree with his Trade Wars also. I disagree with his handling of Iran.



So, specifically, what points of the Green New Deal did you find hilariously stupid? Have you even read it? Or you just being a parrot again?


I haven't read it or paid attention to it, but I look forward to an in depth discussion about it with you. I will do diligent research if you actually come up with some thoughtful analysis.


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Old 24th August 2019, 07:12 PM   #450104  /  #62
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As for you thinking it was a stunt to get refused, why did Israel initially approve their visit?



Why did the US Ambassador and Trump have to step in to get Israel to ban them?


https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel...enter-country
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Old 24th August 2019, 07:51 PM   #450107  /  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
So, you don't like the Squad because they are women of color? They weren't elected as The Squad, but as individuals.
Years ago, they used to put a 'token black person' in groups, to show how racist they weren't.

Now, the squads diversity cloak makes any attack on them racist, such as me pointing out that they have a 'diversity posterchildren' look (which is TOTALLY a coincidence of course)

Even I could be accused of hating 'women of color' by anyone stupid or reactionary enough to be looking for racism everywhere. Even when making that very point.

Quote:



And you like Trump because he isn't politically correct?
Yup. It isn't the worst problem we have as a world, but confusing communication, such as most PC bullshit does, makes things worse.

Free speech over hurt feelings, ALWAYS.

Quote:
This is why I dismiss your opinion as parroting talking points, because you have no depth of thought to back them up. Your "reasons" aren't reasons, they are emotional reactions.
Some, I feel sure.

Some strong reactions to forced religious stuff, for example. I don't care who is doing it, but telling others they MUST respect the given belief always rubs me the wrong way.
Quote:
The only POINT you brought up was two members being banned from Israel and I FUCKING ADDRESSED IT. All the other crap you said had NO POINT.
You addressed it, but it didn't need addressing. I knew they were refused entry for the politicking they wanted to do there, and you know it too.

Quote:
So this is just more bullshit from you, trying to pretend the problem here is my bias, when actually it's your inability to THINK.
What is there to think about?

They were banned. They are probably smart enough to not have been banned, so this was likely to gather publicity for themselves.

Like any attention-whoring politician.
Quote:
I also researched what policies they support, and I agree with them on Universal Healthcare,
That seems stupid. Obama had it as his main goal, even forced it as much as possible.

Turns out, it's not do-able. My guess is that she could support lots of interesting things which can never be done. Like stopping the use of fossil fuel in favour of solar roadways or something. Makes a good momentary fantasy, but falls down hard in reality.

Quote:
Financial Regulation of Investment Firms,
Don't know much about that, but they probably are regulated, or in need of it.
Quote:
Raising the Minimum Wage,
When I was a minimum-wage earner, a raise in the minimum wage meant nothing to me, but lots to whoever gets the taxes on hundreds of minimum wage earners.

It doesn't have my support, though I do support minimum standards for workers (if that makes any sense).

One corp had a neat method...they tied the lowest-paid staff members wage to the highest (CEO I think) and raises had to be proportionate.

I don't know what to back around the issue, but raising minimum wage doesn't seem like it fixes much of anything.
Quote:
and Shifting the Tax burden More to Passive Income and Inheritance,
Should the government inherit? Or the widow?

If she remarries, then dies, should the government inherit, or the widower?

I don't understand the rules around it, but I know they are complicated.
Quote:
Protecting the Freedom of the Internet,
Can't.
Quote:
strengthening EPA protections for Air and Water.
Strengthen enforcement and investigation, preferably by placing a bounty on exposing corporations in conflict, rather than trying to pay government inspectors (who are then vulnerable to their bosses whims)
Quote:
I disagree with Trump's actions on all the above issues. Read that again, not on what he SAID, but on what he has Done. I disagree with his Trade Wars also. I disagree with his handling of Iran.
As to trade wars, I don't know. There are those who think China has been doing it for years already, and this response is late.

I think China is very different, with corporations often openly part of government, while in the west, we pretend that corps are not part of government.
Quote:
So, specifically, what points of the Green New Deal did you find hilariously stupid?
The dramatic and expensive changes, including the (embarassing) acknowledgement that it would have to pay people who refused to work.

It is necessary in a civilized society, but admitting it, out loud, in words is tough to sell.

Instead of having the conversation, they pulled it and brushed it under the carpet. Not classy.

Quote:
Have you even read it? Or you just being a parrot again?
Nah, but it doesn't matter. I heard the attack on parts of it (hollow and shitty attacks) and knew they were unfairly attacked. But they shied away, and didn't bother making a good account of themselves over it.

They might have had a good idea, but it sounds like they didn't believe it.
Quote:
I haven't read it or paid attention to it, but I look forward to an in depth discussion about it with you. I will do diligent research if you actually come up with some thoughtful analysis.
The attack on their 'pay people who refuse to work' part, was shit. It was beneath even those hilariously slanted 'journalists' who did it. But why didn't they push back? Why back away from it and why did they get NO support around it?

To me, if it was important, it would be supported by more than the very few.

Quote:


So many attacks on Trump were about Russian Collusion, now that that ember has been extinguished, they have switched the attacks to 'racist racist racist'.

If you don't start from the assumption that Trump is racist, the reporting tells a very different story than it means to.
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Old 24th August 2019, 08:57 PM   #450109  /  #64
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I don't care if he is racist. I care if his administration supports racist policies.



I don't care about the bullshit, but that is apparently as deep as you can go in any issue, the bullshit level.



And that is why you constantly bring up bullshit talking points.



And you defend your shallowness by saying "It doesn't matter" which is code for "I am too fucking lazy to do any real research myself, I would rather just squawk around covered in bullshit"



I care about Russia because of their propaganda output influencing elections. The whole Trump pony show took the spotlight off the real problem. I already have multiple issues with the fairness of US elections, including the following:


1. Voting machines that provide no paper trails and can not be audited or recounted.
2. Extensive Gerrymandering that dilutes the votes based on whichever party was in power to draw the lines
3. Electoral College negating the popular vote
4. Artificial and unneeded requirements to vote that disenfranchise people, such as homeless people. Homelessness is becoming a huge problem in the US.
5. The influence of black money on US elections.


I care that because he is president, the court system in the US is going to the Hard Right. That means less rights for individuals, minorities, gays, poor people.


And that is what I don't get about you. You say you support freedom of expression and human rights intellectually, but your emotional choices lead you to support people that do the most harm to those things, and you don't really examine jack or shit.


Now on to the only POINT in your post about our New Subject, the stupidity of the Green New Deal:



As for the "People unwilling to work", that was an early draft that never made into the actual proposition. There were several early drafts circulated and posted on line. It was never officially proposed. In addition, there were multiple doctored versions of the Green New Deal made by opponents and circulated on Right Wing Websites. Everything you have brought up about the Green New Deal is pretty much irrelevant bullshit circulated on Right Wing Sites, and you haven't made one single valid point, yet again.


There are in fact TWO official current versions of the Green New Deal, the one supported by the Green Party, and the one that was proposed to the Senate by AOC. They are different. People get them confused.


For the purposes of this discussion the only valid version is the Official version that was proposed before Congress by AOC. Because that is the one you called stupid.


And they haven't backed off. This shows that you don't even understand WHAT the Green New Deal proposed by AOC was.


The Green New Deal was a non binding resolution. It wasn't ever going to be policy or law. It was a large blueprint for a direction to take to address a host of related issues. This is business as usual. So now they are doing exactly what comes next, creating the bills to pass the laws that follow the blueprint of what they want to do.


In summary, you brought up a point about the Green New Deal that was never actually a part of it, and then you said they backed off, which isn't true either.



It came up for vote, and the resolution was defeated. That cycle is complete. They are still however pursuing the individual components of the deal.


Do you have another "Point"?


Otherwise, your stating that the Green New was Laughably stupid was just a Parrot thing. Wasn't it?


Which means that you have presented absolutely nothing that shows that the Squad is part of the "unhinged Left".
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Old 24th August 2019, 09:46 PM   #450110  /  #65
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https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/08...ocasio-cortez


Here you go, you lazy git.
The entire resolution as proposed.


No excuses.
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:54 PM   #450111  /  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
I don't care if he is racist. I care if his administration supports racist policies.
Which 'racist policies' are there?

Quote:
I don't care about the bullshit, but that is apparently as deep as you can go in any issue, the bullshit level.
You don't care about the bullshit. OK, but politics is nearly ALL bullshit.

Or at least the public part.
Quote:
And that is why you constantly bring up bullshit talking points.
Not much different than your bullshit talking points, just the other colour.
Quote:
And you defend your shallowness by saying "It doesn't matter" which is code for "I am too fucking lazy to do any real research myself, I would rather just squawk around covered in bullshit"
So nice of you to say.

I said it didn't matter about the green new deal because it DOESN'T matter, at least to dems or republicans. Maybe you can find a lot of support for it, but I couldn't.

I spoke about one of the bullshit attacks on it, and wondered why they didn't defend themselves.

Quote:
I care about Russia because of their propaganda output influencing elections. The whole Trump pony show took the spotlight off the real problem.
Do you mean the 'real problem' of who Clinton's biggest donor was? Or how that corporation may have influenced elections?

She claimed that the Epstein study was 'debunked', but his response suggests that she is the asshole here, and that there WAS a lot of unfair influence on the last election.

Or were you too focused on the other Epstein to see the important Epstein?

Quote:
I already have multiple issues with the fairness of US elections, including the following:


1. Voting machines that provide no paper trails and can not be audited or recounted.
That sounds tough. I think some sort of blockchain security is coming, but I don't trust ANY system with humans around trying to break it.
Quote:
2. Extensive Gerrymandering that dilutes the votes based on whichever party was in power to draw the lines
sounds shitty, and an expected part of the republic system.
Quote:
3. Electoral College negating the popular vote
Why does the popular vote matter more than the electoral college?

Should the more populous areas rule the rural areas?

Are you then in favour of discarding the USA system in favour of a democracy?

Quote:
4. Artificial and unneeded requirements to vote that disenfranchise people, such as homeless people. Homelessness is becoming a huge problem in the US.
I'm required to provide ID to use just about any government services. Why is it so hard to accept that the same requirements be used for elections?

More importantly, how else do you ensure that only real voters are participating?
Quote:
5. The influence of black money on US elections.
Don't know about this, but my guess is that a lot of the real power is hidden, as are a lot of the donations.

One of the 'republican talking points' you might dislike is that lots of dems want to see Trumps tax returns, when they should ALL be required to submit to an accounting. Anyone who gets rich at the public trough should have some explaining to do.

Also, if you get a big juicy 'book deal' from a foreign country or corporation right after retiring from politics, it can look kind of fishy.
Quote:
I care that because he is president, the court system in the US is going to the Hard Right. That means less rights for individuals, minorities, gays, poor people.
Yet you want to go to a democracy, where 51% of voters can tell EVERYONE else what to do with their country.

Weird.
Quote:
And that is what I don't get about you. You say you support freedom of expression and human rights intellectually, but your emotional choices lead you to support people that do the most harm to those things, and you don't really examine jack or shit.
If Trump was a fascist, you would know because anyone calling him a fascist would be attacked.

Andy Ngo called 'ANTIFA' fascists, and look what happened to him. Fascists beat him and excused the beatings based on his words.
Quote:
Now on to the only POINT in your post about our New Subject, the stupidity of the Green New Deal:



As for the "People unwilling to work", that was an early draft that never made into the actual proposition.
It should have. Any civilized system of socialist support will have to address it.

It's a fuck-ugly thing to have to talk about, but there WILL be people who won't work, and we have to know what to do about them.

That was my point - not because their mention of it was shitty, but because the attack on it was. It is an easy attack because there is almost NO WAY to talk about it that meets with 'PC Guidelines'.
Quote:
There were several early drafts circulated and posted on line. It was never officially proposed. In addition, there were multiple doctored versions of the Green New Deal made by opponents and circulated on Right Wing Websites. Everything you have brought up about the Green New Deal is pretty much irrelevant bullshit circulated on Right Wing Sites, and you haven't made one single valid point, yet again.
How about the one point which I did make, which you misunderstood?

Do you see why it doesn't matter to make more, when you can't take the time and care to understand even one point I made?

Try it on that last one. See if you can describe my position well enough to satisfy me. Or if you maybe have a shit understanding of it.
Quote:
There are in fact TWO official current versions of the Green New Deal, the one supported by the Green Party, and the one that was proposed to the Senate by AOC. They are different. People get them confused.
Fair enough, and one might be great, but the one I refer to is the one which raised the shit attack, then didn't bother following-up.
Quote:
For the purposes of this discussion the only valid version is the Official version that was proposed before Congress by AOC. Because that is the one you called stupid.
I called that whole thing stupid because of reports that it got no support. If you have a great idea, and propose it without getting any support, it's stupid.

It needs support, to BE a great idea.

Maybe a next version will be greeted with wider acceptance.

Quote:
And they haven't backed off. This shows that you don't even understand WHAT the Green New Deal proposed by AOC was.


The Green New Deal was a non binding resolution. It wasn't ever going to be policy or law. It was a large blueprint for a direction to take to address a host of related issues. This is business as usual. So now they are doing exactly what comes next, creating the bills to pass the laws that follow the blueprint of what they want to do.
Who signed on to the green new deal?
Quote:
In summary, you brought up a point about the Green New Deal that was never actually a part of it, and then you said they backed off, which isn't true either.
Fair enough. It might become a great idea, but to be one, it will need a lot more support.

Even if the ideas are great, without support, they might as well be ignored.
Quote:
It came up for vote, and the resolution was defeated. That cycle is complete. They are still however pursuing the individual components of the deal.
Yes, like ending fossil fuel use, with nothing on the horizon which can replace it.

I.E. - unworkable.

Quote:
Do you have another "Point"?


Otherwise, your stating that the Green New was Laughably stupid was just a Parrot thing. Wasn't it?
Laughably stupid was because I heard comics mocking it for failing to be convincing, even to fellow democrats.
Quote:
Which means that you have presented absolutely nothing that shows that the Squad is part of the "unhinged Left".
Of course not. Attach the Democrats to them firmly, just as Trump wants. It'll be good for the party to have that kind of leadership. Pelosi likes them, at least.

She sure treats them respectfully after they accused her of being sloppy about criticizing 'women of colour'.
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Old 25th August 2019, 12:00 AM   #450112  /  #67
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Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/08...ocasio-cortez


Here you go, you lazy git.
The entire resolution as proposed.


No excuses.
I started reading it, but it looked like an economic re-structuring of the US into a socialist country, rather than much about carbon emissions.

Net-zero, eh? Who is going to volunteer to stop producing carbon? I know the wealthy will just buy 'carbon credits' to offset their excess, so it will be poor people 'choosing' to stop polluting, but I'm listening. Who is going to have their life changed? Wealthy politicians, like A.O.C.? Will she lead the charge, by taking the subway? Or will she have to take more carbon-producing modes of transport because she is more important?
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Old 25th August 2019, 07:49 PM   #450127  /  #68
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Evil Duckess
Do you consider Canada socialist?


What countries do you think are socialist?


What is your definition of socialism?


It wasn't that long, you could finish reading it !
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Old 25th August 2019, 08:36 PM   #450128  /  #69
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Zeluvia,for fuck's sake
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Old 25th August 2019, 08:57 PM   #450129  /  #70
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Cunt, for fuck's sake
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Old 25th August 2019, 09:03 PM   #450130  /  #71
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
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Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
Do you
So without answering my questions, you want to move on. Lets hear your 'lefty talking points' then...
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consider Canada socialist?
Largely, their welfare, medical and education systems seem pretty socialist to me.
Quote:
What countries do you think are socialist?
Most of them in the western world. It's what makes them so great, honestly.
Quote:
What is your definition of socialism?
Taking revenue from those who produce wealth, to pay for social programs benefiting groups outside of those 'wealth producers'. So robbing from the rich to give to the poor, to put it plainly.
Quote:
It wasn't that long, you could finish reading it !
I could, but it isn't about carbon, it's about redistribution of wealth and power.

A program to introduce more socialism to the USA, basically. Might be a good idea even, but pitching it as 'green' is something I have been derisively calling 'greenwashing'. This is where people use 'save the earth' language to forward agendas not in keeping with saving the earth.
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Old 25th August 2019, 09:24 PM   #450131  /  #72
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I was responding to your long post but the cat sat on the keyboard and I lost it.


I really can't be arsed to do it again.
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Old 26th August 2019, 01:04 AM   #450132  /  #73
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Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
I was responding to your long post but the cat sat on the keyboard and I lost it.


I really can't be arsed to do it again.
It obviously doesn't matter much. Feel free to start again, but start by answering some of my questions, rather than just calling me stupid and asking more of your own.

Alternately, you could try to rephrase my position in a way that satisfied me, to ensure that you DO understand my position, instead of just going off half-cocked (as we all do sometimes)

Thanks for trying. The green new deal didn't interest me as much as the heckling and bickering around it. Sorry about that, but it's the facts.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:57 PM   #450138  /  #74
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Evil Duckess
Here is part of my response to you:


1. There are quite a few people in the US that don't believe the climate is changing. The US is one of the few countries that is still denying that there is a problem. Since they don't believe it, they refuse to make any preparations for things like sea level rise and flooding. Congress doesn't fix things like the Flood Insurance program. There isn't any money going to repair infrastructure at risk, or create new infrastructure to protect from the effects of climate change. Business continues as usual.



That is why the Green New Deal was a big Deal.







2. Years ago, in the South, Laws were made that required voters to pay a Poll Tax, and or take a test to vote. Both those things were struck down. The problem is in most states, getting and maintaining a photo ID costs money. In effect, that means you have to spend money in order to vote. That is unconstitutional. Some states have moved to provide free ID's.



3. The Electoral college as it now stands causes a few states, such as Ohio and Florida, to have a disproportionate effect on elections. Each state can allocate it's Electoral votes any way it wants. For instance, if a state has 10 Electoral votes, it can allocate them by percentage, or it can do "winner take all". But even if the state decides that is how they want to allocate them, the actual PERSON who is chosen as the Electoral voter can vote for anyone they want.


Electoral voters are chosen usually by the State Legislature.



So you have people who aren't elected, and are not beholden to follow the will of the people, who are the ones actually voting for president.
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Old 26th August 2019, 07:32 PM   #450139  /  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
Here is part of my response to you:


1. There are quite a few people in the US that don't believe the climate is changing. The US is one of the few countries that is still denying that there is a problem. Since they don't believe it, they refuse to make any preparations for things like sea level rise and flooding. Congress doesn't fix things like the Flood Insurance program. There isn't any money going to repair infrastructure at risk, or create new infrastructure to protect from the effects of climate change. Business continues as usual.
There have been heaps of climate-change charlattans over the years, many windmills stand frozen and decaying. It almost looks like funding gets them built, but there isn't a financial case to make for them beyond it.

But the climate change enthusiasts have made it clear that nuclear is probably the only realistic option. Some of them admit it, others insist we look to Germany, a beacon of enthusiasm for alternative energy.

Quote:
That is why the Green New Deal was a big Deal.
If it was such a big Deal, it would be very convincing. I found it trite and uninteresting. Maybe the smarter people will take to it, but that might not be the people voting (or being voted for)

Would you accept a democratic solution to this? Or should the few wise heads prevail, such as the US does in their electoral college system?

Quote:
2. Years ago, in the South, Laws were made that required voters to pay a Poll Tax, and or take a test to vote. Both those things were struck down. The problem is in most states, getting and maintaining a photo ID costs money. In effect, that means you have to spend money in order to vote. That is unconstitutional. Some states have moved to provide free ID's.
Pretty simple to offer free ID. Some are suggesting they can provide free health care to everyone, and every time I've accessed health care, I've had to provide ID.

Must be a simple problem to solve, in a bi-partisan way. I wonder if one side seems to be opposed to identifying voters...say, one side who opposed asking about citizenship on a census...NO - that would be ridiculous.
Quote:



3. The Electoral college as it now stands causes a few states, such as Ohio and Florida, to have a disproportionate effect on elections. Each state can allocate it's Electoral votes any way it wants. For instance, if a state has 10 Electoral votes, it can allocate them by percentage, or it can do "winner take all". But even if the state decides that is how they want to allocate them, the actual PERSON who is chosen as the Electoral voter can vote for anyone they want.
It's a weird and complicated system, which I usually remember being criticized mostly by the losers. I don't know that it's perfect, but are you saying that you would rather live in a democracy?

Should we put things like human rights up for democratic vote? Or only unimportant things like who gets to be president?
Quote:


Electoral voters are chosen usually by the State Legislature.



So you have people who aren't elected, and are not beholden to follow the will of the people, who are the ones actually voting for president.
That is unexpected, but I admit not understanding the system.

Though I remember mostly Democrats asking to abloish it. Could it be that one party likes the 'republic' system, while the other wants a 'democracy'?
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