Links
Portal |  Forum | Core Values | 
MindRomp Forum  

FAQ Janitors Arcade
Go Back   MindRomp Forum > General Discussion > Science and Information Technology

Science and Information Technology "Hello World"

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 18th October 2018, 03:27 AM   #439043  /  #1
Zeluvia
Send Cash or Drugs
 
Zeluvia's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Evil Duckess
Brushing your teeth doesn't stop you from getting cavities

Here is another...


BTW, I am against fluoridated drinking water, I don't think I should be drinking it. I am fine with rinsing my teeth with it, but fuck if I want to drink industrial waste, which is what most water is fluoridated with, because sodium fluoride is too expensive for most municipalities.


But meanwhile, back at the ranch, even countries that DON'T fluoridate their drinking water have had an improvement in the conditions of children's teeth.


Pretty Pictures:
https://fluoridealert.org/studies/caries01



But wait, what?


Oh yeah, most cavities are from defects in your teeth that make them susceptible to the bacteria that cause decay. These defects are created when the teeth are being formed. They are related to childhood nutrition and disease.


https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1111/ger.12331
__________________


Last edited by Zeluvia; 18th October 2018 at 03:32 AM.
Zeluvia is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 18th October 2018, 03:34 AM   #439044  /  #2
nostrum
too boring to be considered weird
 
nostrum's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
industrial waste, which is what most water is fluoridated with
[citation needed]
__________________
I thought I was in a bad mood but it's been a few years so I think this is who I am now
nostrum is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 18th October 2018, 03:47 AM   #439046  /  #3
MSG
Ol' Zipperlaig
 
MSG's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Nyfb
Not the case in this country; don't know about the Third World, otherwise known as Texas
MSG is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Yay from
Majiffy (18th October 2018)
Old 18th October 2018, 09:19 AM   #439049  /  #4
MondoVman
Giant Member
 
MondoVman's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Southwest Atlantica
My childhood cavities were due to too much candy, not brushing often enough and never flossing.

My adult cavities are due to infrequent flossing. I drink fluoridated tap water exclusively.
__________________
Never see them let you sweat!
Online dating is less painful than playing mafia.
MondoVman is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 18th October 2018, 11:25 AM   #439053  /  #5
Imp
Inanimate bowl of pasta
 
Imp's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Waddle waddle
Flossing is gross
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
We are all occasionally dumbasses.

Except Imp
Imp is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 18th October 2018, 06:03 PM   #439061  /  #6
Majiffy
I'll have you know I'm popular on many web forums
 
Majiffy's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Buffalo, NY
I have soft teeth and am prone to cavities. I had cavities in my molars before they even broke through the gums. Got my x-rays and they were like "well I guess we'll be seeing you back when these come in!"
__________________
Herpy derpy jerfy!


ʘᴥʘ
pledged my daily allegiance to Satan and pear-shaped air hockey turntable earth
Vivere diu rebellionus!

Proud propagator of the "fire for warmth" myth
Majiffy is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 18th October 2018, 07:09 PM   #439063  /  #7
Imp
Inanimate bowl of pasta
 
Imp's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Waddle waddle
It's all that soylent
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
We are all occasionally dumbasses.

Except Imp
Imp is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Yay from
Majiffy (18th October 2018)
Old 18th October 2018, 07:55 PM   #439065  /  #8
Majiffy
I'll have you know I'm popular on many web forums
 
Majiffy's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Buffalo, NY
Nah this was when I was like 8 or something
__________________
Herpy derpy jerfy!


ʘᴥʘ
pledged my daily allegiance to Satan and pear-shaped air hockey turntable earth
Vivere diu rebellionus!

Proud propagator of the "fire for warmth" myth
Majiffy is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 18th October 2018, 09:39 PM   #439068  /  #9
Brother Daniel
bad case of gleeks
 
Brother Daniel's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: a peninsula in the North Atlantic
I have perfect teeth.
Spoiler
But they were in danger of falling out because of crappy gums.

I've had 4 unpleasant periodontal grafts to correct that problem.

__________________
Jiffy: Canadians are considered an invasive pest on New York roads and interstates
borealis: They're pretty tasty stuffed and roasted. All dark meat though.
Brother Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 19th October 2018, 12:00 AM   #439081  /  #10
Zeluvia
Send Cash or Drugs
 
Zeluvia's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Evil Duckess
https://healthywa.wa.gov.au/Articles...tern-Australia


fluorosilicic acid (a compound of fluorine, hydrogen and silicon). This is the most common method of adding fluoride to drinking water supplies in Western Australia. A very small amount of fluorosilicic acid is added at the treatment plant as a liquid, where it dissolves to release fluoride ion.


https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...62901113000087


The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA) health-based drinking water standards for As and Pb are zero. Our focus was on comparing the social costs associated with the difference in numbers of cancer cases arising from As during use of HFSA as fluoridating agent versus substitution of USP grade NaF. We calculated the amount of As delivered to fluoridated water systems using each agent, and used EPA Unit Risk values for As to estimate the number of lung and bladder cancer cases associated with each. We used cost of cancer cases published by EPA to estimate cost of treating lung and bladder cancer cases. Commercial prices of HFSA and USP NaF were used to compare costs of using each to fluoridate. We then compared the total cost to our society for the use of HFSA versus USP NaF as fluoridating agent. The U.S. could save $1 billion to more than $5 billion/year by using USP NaF in place of HFSA while simultaneously mitigating the pain and suffering of citizens that result from use of the technical grade fluoridating agents. Other countries, such as Ireland, New Zealand, Canada and Australia that use technical grade fluoridating agents may realize similar benefits by making this change. Policy makers would have to confront the uneven distribution of costs and benefits across societies if this change were made.


As is arsenic. HFSA is also known to leech metals out of pipes.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexafluorosilicic_acid


It is manufactured as a precursor to aluminum trifluoride and synthetic cryolite. It is commonly used as a source of fluoride for water fluoridation.[3][4] Salts derived from hexafluorosilicic acid are called hexafluorosilicates.



Hexafluorosilicic acid is also commonly used for water fluoridation in several countries including the United States, the United Kingdom, and the Republic of Ireland. In the U.S., about 40,000 tons of fluorosilicic acid is recovered from phosphoric acid plants, and then used primarily in water fluoridation, sometimes after being processed into sodium silicofluoride.[7] In this application, the hexafluorosilicic acid decomposes to the fluoride ion (F−) – which is the active agent for the protection of teeth – and inert silicon dioxide (SiO2).



Fluorosilicic acid (Hydrofluorosilicic acid) is manufactured by two different processes, resulting in products with different characteristics. The largest production of the acid is as a byproduct of phosphate fertilizer manufacture. A smaller amount is produced from HF and silica resulting in a purer product at slightly higher strength. [Editor: this is an EXACT quote from their web page, as of September 15, 1999]




NaF is naturally occurring sodium fluoride. It is what is used in toothpaste.




__________________


Last edited by Zeluvia; 19th October 2018 at 12:10 AM.
Zeluvia is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 19th October 2018, 12:08 AM   #439082  /  #11
Zeluvia
Send Cash or Drugs
 
Zeluvia's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Evil Duckess
Quote:
Originally Posted by MondoVman View Post
My childhood cavities were due to too much candy, not brushing often enough and never flossing.

My adult cavities are due to infrequent flossing. I drink fluoridated tap water exclusively.



The science is saying otherwise. There was no real scientific study of fluoride, like a controlled study over time. Someone noticed a CORRELATION between naturally occurring fluoride in drinking water and reduced cavities in one specific population, and announced that fluoride stopped cavities. But they didn't even know how it worked, or why it worked. And even then, with what little they thought they knew, they thought the benefit of fluoride was only good for children, and had no effect on adults.



Real science, real studies, and real world data is challenging this, and it doesn't look good for the fluoride in drinking water fans.
__________________


Last edited by Zeluvia; 19th October 2018 at 12:15 AM.
Zeluvia is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 19th October 2018, 12:15 AM   #439083  /  #12
Zeluvia
Send Cash or Drugs
 
Zeluvia's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Evil Duckess
https://www.newsweek.com/fluoridatio...y-shows-348251


It has also become clear in the last 15 years that fluoride primarily acts topically, according to the CDC. It reacts with the surface of the tooth enamel, making it more resistant to acids excreted by bacteria. Thus, there's no good reason to swallow fluoride and subject every tissue of your body to it, Thiessen say
__________________

Zeluvia is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 19th October 2018, 12:21 AM   #439085  /  #13
Zeluvia
Send Cash or Drugs
 
Zeluvia's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Evil Duckess
I have two cavities. I had them filled when I was a kid. I had years on the road where I didn't always brush my teeth. I was really lax on dental care, except for flossing, and did copious amounts of drugs, and ate bad things. I never even started going to dentist to have my teeth cleaned till I was in my 40's



My teeth are fine. So are my gums. My whole family has good teeth. We tend to die with them. So it's partly genetic.
__________________

Zeluvia is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 19th October 2018, 12:27 AM   #439087  /  #14
MSG
Ol' Zipperlaig
 
MSG's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Nyfb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
The largest production of the acid is as a byproduct of phosphate fertilizer manufacture
this is your case for calling it "industrial waste"?
__________________
Over 19,000 more posts than Prince Humperdinck
MSG is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 19th October 2018, 12:37 AM   #439088  /  #15
nostrum
too boring to be considered weird
 
nostrum's Avatar
 

__________________
I thought I was in a bad mood but it's been a few years so I think this is who I am now
nostrum is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Yay from
Majiffy (19th October 2018)
Old 19th October 2018, 01:41 AM   #439093  /  #16
Mantisdreamz
corridors, refectories and files
 
Mantisdreamz's Avatar
 

Here, where we are, in Montreal, the water doesn't have fluoride in it. I floss, every few days.

.....ever since I went to the dentist, I have one tooth that collects plaque. The dentist did a number on this one tooth.. and I think he created engravings in the tooth, that now, easily collect plaque.

Bit gross
Mantisdreamz is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Yay from
SR71 (19th October 2018), Zeluvia (19th October 2018)
Old 19th October 2018, 07:03 AM   #439117  /  #17
Zeluvia
Send Cash or Drugs
 
Zeluvia's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Evil Duckess
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeluvia View Post
The largest production of the acid is as a byproduct of phosphate fertilizer manufacture
this is your case for calling it "industrial waste"?



What would you call it if it wasn't being put in drinking water? What are it's other uses? What would the companies do with it?

If it's so good for us, why don't they put it in toothpaste?



You have 3 days to answer.




I think some of the people in the anti fluoridated water camp are nutcases. There is no science for their crazy ass claims. But there isn't any science for adding fluoride to drinking water either. The very brief amount of time it is on your teeth before you swallow it doesn't do any good for your teeth. The only age group that MIGHT benefit from drinking it is children under 8, and even that is questionable, good nutrition and overall health is just as good at creating strong adult teeth without additional fluoride. And water goes everywhere, plants, animals, the rivers, the ocean.
__________________


Last edited by Zeluvia; 19th October 2018 at 07:09 AM.
Zeluvia is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 19th October 2018, 07:38 AM   #439118  /  #18
MSG
Ol' Zipperlaig
 
MSG's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Nyfb
FFS why does MR have to have a blip just when I try and post my 500-word rant
__________________
Over 19,000 more posts than Prince Humperdinck
MSG is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Yay from
borealis (19th October 2018)
Old 19th October 2018, 08:00 AM   #439119  /  #19
MSG
Ol' Zipperlaig
 
MSG's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Nyfb
Right. First of all, it's garbage describing fluorosilicic acid as "industrial waste". These are naturally occurring minerals - inorganic chemicals, no different to the salt in the sea. You could just as easily paint the phosphate fertiliser as a waste (it is: the main source has historically been bird shit mined from guano islands), and point out it also ends up in the food chain (hint: fertiliser).

Fluorosilicic acid is a complex of hydrofluoric and silicic acid that is a bit safer to handle and transport than HF acid alone, although both are corrosive and extremely toxic in concentrated form. But they are diluted into the water supply at trace, i.e. parts per million, levels because most Australian waters are depleted in fluoride, i.e. they have much less than in many naturally occurring water supplies around the world.

As for the arsenic red herring, it will be present as a trace contaminant at levels that are readily assayed in a well-equipped water laboratory, and it is trivially easy to then calculate how much will be added to a water supply and show it will be well below drinking water standards and levels naturally present in many other water supplies in the world.

Which is true of many heavy metals - many of which are toxic at elevated levels but are actually required in trace amounts for biological processes. Chromium being one example.

As far as the health benefits or otherwise, you'll have to find a population health specialist to argue over why dramatic reductions in rates of tooth decay are a bad idea.

Spoiler
For example:
Quote:
Water fluoridation is supported by the Department of Health Western Australia (external site) and an extensive range of authoritative health research organisations and public health agencies in Australia and worldwide, including the:

National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) (external site)
World Health Organization (WHO) (external site)
Australian Dental Association (ADA) (external site)
Australian Medical Association (AMA) (external site)
Australian Research Centre for Population Oral Health (ARCPOH) (external site)
Public Health Association of Australia (external site)
The Australian Academy of Science (external site)
Australian and New Zealand Society for Paediatric Dentistry (external site)
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (USA) (external site)
International Association for Dental Research (external site)
US Department of Health and Human Services (external site)
National Cancer Institute (USA) (external site)
Harvard Medical School, Harvard School of Dental Medicine, Harvard School of Public Health (external link)
Community water fluoridation is also supported by all Australian State and Territory health agencies.

See also
Water
Drinking water in Western Australia
Fluoride and protecting your teeth from tooth decay
Fluoride facts for Western Australia
Bore water
Related sites
Department of Health Western Australia (external site)
National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) (external site)
World Health Organization (WHO) (external site)
Australian Dental Association (ADA) (external site)
Australian Medical Association (AMA) (external site)
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (USA) (external site)
Australian Research Centre for Population Oral Health (ARCPOH) (external site)
Public Health Association of Australia (external site)
The Australian Academy of Science (external site)
Queensland Health (external site)
American Fluoridation Society (external site)
British Fluoridation Society (external site)


But as far as industrial chemistry, don't come hand-waving bullshit about "industrial waste" and heavy metals because those arguments just won't wash.

/rant
__________________
Over 19,000 more posts than Prince Humperdinck
MSG is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Yay from
borealis (19th October 2018)
Old 19th October 2018, 08:05 AM   #439120  /  #20
MSG
Ol' Zipperlaig
 
MSG's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Nyfb
clarification: hydrofluoric and fluorosilicic acids are toxic. silicic acid is not.
__________________
Over 19,000 more posts than Prince Humperdinck
MSG is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 19th October 2018, 08:15 AM   #439121  /  #21
MSG
Ol' Zipperlaig
 
MSG's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Nyfb
Further clarification: >7% hydrofluoric acid is classified as Category 1 for oral toxicity (highest level of toxicity), but fluorosilicic acid is Category 4 (lowest, so doesn't need to be labelled as toxic for transport).

Safety data sheet for hydrofluoric acid http://docs.redox.com/sds/4941.Pdf
Safety data sheet for fluorosilicic acid https://www.csbp.com.au/docs/default....pdf?sfvrsn=10
__________________
Over 19,000 more posts than Prince Humperdinck
MSG is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 19th October 2018, 09:27 AM   #439126  /  #22
Zeluvia
Send Cash or Drugs
 
Zeluvia's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Evil Duckess
Don't come at me with your old foggy outdated crap. Half the sites on your list have changed their stance.


https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazin...rinking-water


https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/fe...randjean-choi
__________________

Zeluvia is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 19th October 2018, 09:39 AM   #439127  /  #23
MSG
Ol' Zipperlaig
 
MSG's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Nyfb
like I said, I'm not going to argue the public health merits of fluoride with you. but don't go advancing bullshit arguments about the chemistry of fluoride treatment and expect them to go unchallenged
__________________
Over 19,000 more posts than Prince Humperdinck
MSG is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Yay from
nostrum (19th October 2018)
Old 19th October 2018, 09:42 AM   #439128  /  #24
Zeluvia
Send Cash or Drugs
 
Zeluvia's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Evil Duckess
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG View Post
Right. First of all, it's garbage describing fluorosilicic acid as "industrial waste". These are naturally occurring minerals - inorganic chemicals, no different to the salt in the sea. You could just as easily paint the phosphate fertiliser as a waste (it is: the main source has historically been bird shit mined from guano islands), and point out it also ends up in the food chain (hint: fertiliser).

Fluorosilicic acid is a complex of hydrofluoric and silicic acid that is a bit safer to handle and transport than HF acid alone, although both are corrosive and extremely toxic in concentrated form. But they are diluted into the water supply at trace, i.e. parts per million, levels because most Australian waters are depleted in fluoride, i.e. they have much less than in many naturally occurring water supplies around the world.

As for the arsenic red herring, it will be present as a trace contaminant at levels that are readily assayed in a well-equipped water laboratory, and it is trivially easy to then calculate how much will be added to a water supply and show it will be well below drinking water standards and levels naturally present in many other water supplies in the world.

Which is true of many heavy metals - many of which are toxic at elevated levels but are actually required in trace amounts for biological processes. Chromium being one example.

As far as the health benefits or otherwise, you'll have to find a population health specialist to argue over why dramatic reductions in rates of tooth decay are a bad idea.

Spoiler
For example:
Quote:
Water fluoridation is supported by the Department of Health Western Australia (external site) and an extensive range of authoritative health research organisations and public health agencies in Australia and worldwide, including the:

National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) (external site)
World Health Organization (WHO) (external site)
Australian Dental Association (ADA) (external site)
Australian Medical Association (AMA) (external site)
Australian Research Centre for Population Oral Health (ARCPOH) (external site)
Public Health Association of Australia (external site)
The Australian Academy of Science (external site)
Australian and New Zealand Society for Paediatric Dentistry (external site)
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (USA) (external site)
International Association for Dental Research (external site)
US Department of Health and Human Services (external site)
National Cancer Institute (USA) (external site)
Harvard Medical School, Harvard School of Dental Medicine, Harvard School of Public Health (external link)
Community water fluoridation is also supported by all Australian State and Territory health agencies.

See also
Water
Drinking water in Western Australia
Fluoride and protecting your teeth from tooth decay
Fluoride facts for Western Australia
Bore water
Related sites
Department of Health Western Australia (external site)
National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) (external site)
World Health Organization (WHO) (external site)
Australian Dental Association (ADA) (external site)
Australian Medical Association (AMA) (external site)
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (USA) (external site)
Australian Research Centre for Population Oral Health (ARCPOH) (external site)
Public Health Association of Australia (external site)
The Australian Academy of Science (external site)
Queensland Health (external site)
American Fluoridation Society (external site)
British Fluoridation Society (external site)


But as far as industrial chemistry, don't come hand-waving bullshit about "industrial waste" and heavy metals because those arguments just won't wash.

/rant

You didn't answer the questions. What exactly is the chemical by product of fertilizer production and what do they do with it?


http://www.mosaicco.com/products/ind...oducts_hfs.htm
__________________

Zeluvia is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 19th October 2018, 09:45 AM   #439129  /  #25
Zeluvia
Send Cash or Drugs
 
Zeluvia's Avatar
 

Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Evil Duckess
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG View Post
like I said, I'm not going to argue the public health merits of fluoride with you. but don't go advancing bullshit arguments about the chemistry of fluoride treatment and expect them to go unchallenged

You haven't explained it well enough to me. Like I am five ; )


I don't get your bird shit reference. Yes bird shit has phosphorus, but isn't it really high in nitrogen? I don't believe fluoride is a by product of processing guano. Maybe I am wrong.



Added fluoride in the US drinking water comes from phosphate mining in Florida. Up until the 1979, they poisoned the environment by releasing fluoride compounds in vapor form. After problems with livestock and citrus trees, they were forced to scrub it out of the steam they were releasing.


Probably the fact that I was living in Florida at the time this whole fucking circus was going on influences my opinion because at the time, the fluoride being released in vapor form was indeed industrial WASTE. Certainly they didn't value it enough to capture and sell it until they were forced to by regulations.
__________________


Last edited by Zeluvia; 19th October 2018 at 10:12 AM.
Zeluvia is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Reply

  MindRomp Forum > General Discussion > Science and Information Technology

Tags
penis penis penis

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Thread Killed By
Toybox Mafia Day 5 - time to stop playing around Sybil Mafia 168 22nd October 2016 11:14 PM
G-spot 'definitely doesn't exist' Orphia Nay Science and Information Technology 58 26th August 2016 02:03 AM
Where does it stop? Supernaut Human Endeavour 25 17th February 2013 08:48 AM
Signup, Probably Exodus Theme, Teeth GM borealis Mafia 2 29th July 2012 05:01 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2011-2018 MindRomp.org