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View Poll Results: Do differences in sex shown in sport performance suggest there would be a difference in overall earn
Yes 1 20.00%
No 1 20.00%
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Old 13th April 2018, 11:48 AM   #424695  /  #26
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Old 13th April 2018, 03:22 PM   #424805  /  #27
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I dunno, Cunt - do you want women on the whole to earn less money than men? IOW, to be an underclass because women are on average smaller and not as physically strong as men?

In sports, you already have that, men earn more than women in professional sports, so what is your point?

Seriously, I don't understand.
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Old 13th April 2018, 03:50 PM   #424821  /  #28
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I dunno, Cunt - do you want women on the whole to earn less money than men?
What I want isn't really relevant, but can you really think I want that?

What I want is fair wages for all workers. Is that clear enough?
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Originally Posted by borealis View Post
IOW, to be an underclass because women are on average smaller and not as physically strong as men?
Women an underclass? What does that even mean? In powerlifting, women are hilariously behind men? Does that make them an 'underclass'? In university enrollment, women are hilariously ahead of men. Does that make them an underclass?

You are loading the hell out of the language.
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In sports, you already have that, men earn more than women in professional sports, so what is your point?
If sports income could be 'fair', this would be relevant. Pro sports are a show, so whoever pays to watch decides. No-one I know tunes in to watch women's hockey as regularly as they tune in to watch NHL. Is that sexist of them? Maybe, but it is how the money flows.



I wish I could get you to watch Lanni Marchant (Cdn marathon champ and lawyer) address parliment about this issue. She doesn't lament the spectator money being unbalanced, but instead addresses public funding and competition. As a women, understanding fully the biological/performance differences (I daresay better than either of us)

I really do wish you would take the time, but I've not much home. I'm a cunt, so most would just assume it was not worth watching.
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Seriously, I don't understand.
What is not to understand?

I think there is a HUGE performance difference between men and women, which is shown clearly in competitive sport.

My question here is whether this would carry over into other competitive areas, like work.

If we had fair wages, would we still expect to see men outperforming women in work? So even with everyone paid fairly, I would expect men to outearn women overall.

I think we would, so while fair wages IS a sound goal, equal outcomes would not be. Because it is competitive, and the best competitors win the highest pay (in a fair world)

I guess it just seems to me that many folks dismiss the differences shown in the sport world as irrelevant to the work world, and I strongly disagree. More and more, in fact, as I gain understanding of athletics.
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Old 13th April 2018, 03:50 PM   #424822  /  #29
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You are a legit dumb person
You're spelling, grammar and punctuation have convinced me that, coming from you, this is a compliment.
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:07 PM   #424826  /  #30
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You are a legit dumb person
You're spelling, grammar and punctuation have convinced me that, coming from you, this is a compliment.
I bet his swedish spelling grammar and punctuation is better than yours : )
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:11 PM   #424828  /  #31
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You are a legit dumb person
You're spelling, grammar and punctuation have convinced me that, coming from you, this is a compliment.
I bet his swedish spelling grammar and punctuation is better than yours : )
If his Swedish is also just insults without substance, then I still think of it as a compliment.
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:15 PM   #424830  /  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
I dunno, Cunt - do you want women on the whole to earn less money than men?
What I want isn't really relevant, but can you really think I want that?

What I want is fair wages for all workers. Is that clear enough?
Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
IOW, to be an underclass because women are on average smaller and not as physically strong as men?
Women an underclass? What does that even mean? In powerlifting, women are hilariously behind men? Does that make them an 'underclass'? In university enrollment, women are hilariously ahead of men. Does that make them an underclass?

You are loading the hell out of the language.
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Originally Posted by borealis View Post

In sports, you already have that, men earn more than women in professional sports, so what is your point?
If sports income could be 'fair', this would be relevant. Pro sports are a show, so whoever pays to watch decides. No-one I know tunes in to watch women's hockey as regularly as they tune in to watch NHL. Is that sexist of them? Maybe, but it is how the money flows.



I wish I could get you to watch Lanni Marchant (Cdn marathon champ and lawyer) address parliment about this issue. She doesn't lament the spectator money being unbalanced, but instead addresses public funding and competition. As a women, understanding fully the biological/performance differences (I daresay better than either of us)

I really do wish you would take the time, but I've not much home. I'm a cunt, so most would just assume it was not worth watching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by borealis View Post
Seriously, I don't understand.
What is not to understand?

I think there is a HUGE performance difference between men and women, which is shown clearly in competitive sport.

My question here is whether this would carry over into other competitive areas, like work.

If we had fair wages, would we still expect to see men outperforming women in work? So even with everyone paid fairly, I would expect men to outearn women overall.

I think we would, so while fair wages IS a sound goal, equal outcomes would not be. Because it is competitive, and the best competitors win the highest pay (in a fair world)

I guess it just seems to me that many folks dismiss the differences shown in the sport world as irrelevant to the work world, and I strongly disagree. More and more, in fact, as I gain understanding of athletics.
So Cunt, by this logic, groups of people that are very athletic and good at sports should be earning top dollar in every area of life right?

So, if looking at generalized racial groups and athletic performance, black people should make the most, white people second, and chinese third.

This is what your theory states correct?
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:22 PM   #424831  /  #33
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So Cunt, by this logic, groups of people that are very athletic and good at sports should be earning top dollar in every area of life right?
Here is an important difference - not 'should' be, but 'will' be.

It's not about how to choose pay for people, but the higher-performers will end up earning more, because of performing better throughout.
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So, if looking at generalized racial groups and athletic performance, black people should make the most, white people second, and chinese third.

This is what your theory states correct?
Nope, we were comparing men and women, not other groups, but again, it isn't about who will be paid more, but about who was.

Let me give you an example.

We both start in a concrete finishing company. One of us, having more stamina/endurance takes more in each wheelbarrow load, meaning one of us does more work.

Who gets offered overtime?

Who should get the promotion?

So while we both should be started at the same pay we certainly shouldn't end our careers with the same earnings.

I hope I'm explaining well, but it is the difference between 'should' and 'did'.
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:26 PM   #424832  /  #34
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and Zeluvia, thanks for taking the time to try to understand exactly what we disagree on. It isn't an easy topic to talk around.

I have been thinking that it might do well to try to phrase our disagreement in a way we both agree, but I don't know how helpful it would be.
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:48 PM   #424833  /  #35
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Cunt, I am not a person that's very interested in most sports. I appreciate athleticism. I like watching hockey games and appreciate both mens and womens hockey, but I like watching womens hockey more, not for feminist reasons, but because I think some of the rule differences make it a more watchable game.

Obviously I'm not in a majority.

Quote:
I wish I could get you to watch Lanni Marchant (Cdn marathon champ and lawyer) address parliment about this issue. She doesn't lament the spectator money being unbalanced, but instead addresses public funding and competition. As a women, understanding fully the biological/performance differences (I daresay better than either of us)
As she should!

I don't know where you're getting the idea that women athletes expect to outperform men in the same sport. They don't.

But I also don't get why you expect there not to be divisions in which people excel, and why you seem to think that athletes who are the very best in their discipline are somehow 'worth less' because someone in a similar discipline is the very best there.

You wouldn't denigrate a top swimmer because he sucks at diving. The two activities both require swimming ability. A lot of the training is similar. But in reality, they are different disciplines. You know and respect that. So why can't you stop comparing women's athletics to some general overview of men's athletics and appreciate that these women are the very best in their own sport, which is different from the men's counterpart.

Quote:
I think there is a HUGE performance difference between men and women, which is shown clearly in competitive sport.

My question here is whether this would carry over into other competitive areas, like work.

If we had fair wages, would we still expect to see men outperforming women in work? So even with everyone paid fairly, I would expect men to outearn women overall.

I think we would, so while fair wages IS a sound goal, equal outcomes would not be. Because it is competitive, and the best competitors win the highest pay (in a fair world)

I guess it just seems to me that many folks dismiss the differences shown in the sport world as irrelevant to the work world, and I strongly disagree. More and more, in fact, as I gain understanding of athletics.
Here you are equating physical prowess in sports with 'the work world', and you are predicting that if everything was perfectly fair, women should still be expected to earn less money than men.

How is that not directly stating that women are, and should be, an underclass?

How is that not utterly failing to recognise the influences of socialisation, of culture, of education and entertainment, as sources of inequality in the workplace and elsewhere?

Jesus Christ, it's less than 45 years since I wasn't even permitted to apply for a highway flag person job because female, couldn't enter a tavern or bar and only permitted in a club with a male escort, could be auto-fired for pregnant without a husband, or pregnant at all. And on and on. You're younger than I am, I don't imagine you have a lot of memories of that sort of thing, but it's a very damn short time for socialisation and culture to creakily grind towards a new perspective on men and women. And people like yourself make it evident that there's a long way to travel still, for women and men.

If you knew how hard we worked to encourage men to work in childcare, because kids need role models of both sexes, and the kids we worked with overwhelmingly had absent fathers. But the pay was shitty, and the men would outright state that, pay aside, working goddamned construction labour was less exhausting than caring for little kids.

We made concessions for male workers, required less (or none) early childhood education, helped them learn, encouraged them, but they knew full well there were hella easier, less stressful ways for any man to earn a living.

So GOOD childcare is hard, stressful, requires stamina and insight and constant vigilance, and women workers accepted that and did it. We still got paid shit. Why? Why was our work less valuable than toting piles of bricks in a wheelbarrow?

Try to think about that a bit. What is value in 'the work world'? How do you come to value something more or less? Why is one job 'worth more' than an entirely different sort of job?
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:52 PM   #424834  /  #36
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I think there is a HUGE performance difference between men and women, which is shown clearly in competitive sport.

My question here is whether this would carry over into other competitive areas, like work.
Well I don't understand this statement at all then. If there is a huge performance difference between chinese players and black players in competitive basketball, aren't you saying this should carry over into the workplace and we would see a huge difference between the pay of black people and chinese people?

And you used the word "would". Not DOES.
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:58 PM   #424838  /  #37
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Old 13th April 2018, 05:00 PM   #424840  /  #38
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Old 13th April 2018, 05:09 PM   #424844  /  #39
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Old 13th April 2018, 05:12 PM   #424847  /  #40
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Old 13th April 2018, 05:47 PM   #424853  /  #41
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You are a legit dumb person
You're spelling, grammar and punctuation have convinced me that, coming from you, this is a compliment.
Did you really just fuck up while correcting someone else's spelling? Nice.
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Old 13th April 2018, 05:50 PM   #424854  /  #42
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Quote:
I wish I could get you to watch Lanni Marchant (Cdn marathon champ and lawyer) address parliment about this issue. She doesn't lament the spectator money being unbalanced, but instead addresses public funding and competition. As a women, understanding fully the biological/performance differences (I daresay better than either of us)
As she should!

I don't know where you're getting the idea that women athletes expect to outperform men in the same sport. They don't.
I don't have that idea. I don't know why you would think so.

Maybe we misunderstood each other, but woman athletes (who know their sport) know their rankings. As do men, of course.
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But I also don't get why you expect there not to be divisions in which people excel, and why you seem to think that athletes who are the very best in their discipline are somehow 'worth less' because someone in a similar discipline is the very best there.
Not individuals, but when you look at the larger group (ALL athletes) you see trends.
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You wouldn't denigrate a top swimmer because he sucks at diving. The two activities both require swimming ability. A lot of the training is similar. But in reality, they are different disciplines. You know and respect that. So why can't you stop comparing women's athletics to some general overview of men's athletics and appreciate that these women are the very best in their own sport, which is different from the men's counterpart.
Marathon is the exact same for both (or powerlifting) so lets use those examples, instead of less clear ones.
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Originally Posted by borealis View Post

Quote:
I think there is a HUGE performance difference between men and women, which is shown clearly in competitive sport.

My question here is whether this would carry over into other competitive areas, like work.

If we had fair wages, would we still expect to see men outperforming women in work? So even with everyone paid fairly, I would expect men to outearn women overall.

I think we would, so while fair wages IS a sound goal, equal outcomes would not be. Because it is competitive, and the best competitors win the highest pay (in a fair world)

I guess it just seems to me that many folks dismiss the differences shown in the sport world as irrelevant to the work world, and I strongly disagree. More and more, in fact, as I gain understanding of athletics.
Here you are equating physical prowess in sports with 'the work world', and you are predicting that if everything was perfectly fair, women should still be expected to earn less money than men.
Yes, to have earned less money than men.

Endurance, speed, strength and the other qualities shown in athletics do apply to many jobs. At least in my experience.
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How is that not directly stating that women are, and should be, an underclass?

How is that not utterly failing to recognise the influences of socialisation, of culture, of education and entertainment, as sources of inequality in the workplace and elsewhere?
Those ARE inequalities. So are strength and speed, aren't they?
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Jesus Christ, it's less than 45 years since I wasn't even permitted to apply for a highway flag person job because female, couldn't enter a tavern or bar and only permitted in a club with a male escort, could be auto-fired for pregnant without a husband, or pregnant at all. And on and on. You're younger than I am, I don't imagine you have a lot of memories of that sort of thing, but it's a very damn short time for socialisation and culture to creakily grind towards a new perspective on men and women. And people like yourself make it evident that there's a long way to travel still, for women and men.
|
Is it because I believe that they are biologically different that I need a new perspective?

Or because I think equality of opportunity is great, and equality of outcome is not so great?
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So GOOD childcare is hard, stressful, requires stamina and insight and constant vigilance, and women workers accepted that and did it. We still got paid shit. Why? Why was our work less valuable than toting piles of bricks in a wheelbarrow?
I don't know, but if the bricklaying job is so much easier, why are there still so many women refusing to do it?

Overwhelmingly, in the most progressive countries, women still choose pink collar jobs.

You could say it's because of socialization, but you could also say that it is because blue-collar jobs are much more physically demanding, dangerous and smelly.
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Try to think about that a bit. What is value in 'the work world'? How do you come to value something more or less? Why is one job 'worth more' than an entirely different sort of job?
Market pressure.

Would you pay more to have a babysitter cover your kid for an hour? Or a plumber to reach into your waste-pipe to fix something? I mean, if you were able to do either job yourself...

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cunt
I think there is a HUGE performance difference between men and women, which is shown clearly in competitive sport.

My question here is whether this would carry over into other competitive areas, like work.
Well I don't understand this statement at all then. If there is a huge performance difference between chinese players and black players in competitive basketball, aren't you saying this should carry over into the workplace and we would see a huge difference between the pay of black people and chinese people?

And you used the word "would". Not DOES.
Again, you are using different examples...chinese players may indeed be less skilled at basketball, but that is a terrible example, since they regularly beat their black competition at other sports.

If one racial group consistently was outperformed in ALL sports by another, that would be a better analogy.

Men consistently - and across the board - outperform women in sport...regardless of which race, culture or whether they were socialized differently.

Biological differences mean that, in the outcomes, things will be different. I have no problem with agreeing that individual women CAN outperform men, but when you back out and look at huge stats of sport, they simply don't.

So it's the difference between equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. Each student has the opportunity to access post-secondary education, for example, but if they choose to work harder, or pick a more valuable discipline to study, some will do better.

In post-secondary, there are currently a higher number of females. If they all study different disciplines, should they all end up earning the same amount? Or if women more often enroll in gender studies, and men more often in engineering, would you expect the outcome (earnings over the long term) to be different?


And can we boil this down to what exactly we disagree about once in awhile?

I think it is like this.

I think sport results indicate that biological differences exist, which show higher strength, speed and endurance in males. (do we agree or disagree?)

I think those results would predict higher earnings in males, over their careers. (do we agree or disagree?)
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Old 13th April 2018, 05:51 PM   #424855  /  #43
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You are a legit dumb person
You're spelling, grammar and punctuation have convinced me that, coming from you, this is a compliment.
Did you really just fuck up while correcting someone else's spelling? Nice.
Thanks, that's fucking funny.

But to pick a nit, I wasn't correcting them.
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Old 13th April 2018, 06:17 PM   #424858  /  #44
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I don't know, but if the bricklaying job is so much easier, why are there still so many women refusing to do it?

Overwhelmingly, in the most progressive countries, women still choose pink collar jobs.

You could say it's because of socialization, but you could also say that it is because blue-collar jobs are much more physically demanding, dangerous and smelly.
OMFG Cunt, you are either trolling or culturally deaf and blind.

Yes, men have more physical strength on average and therefore can push more bricks in a wheelbarrow. Yes, women traditionally chose jobs requiring endurance rather than physical strength. So why was strength more valued than endurance? Why brute force over more nimble fingers?

Quote:
it is because blue-collar jobs are much more physically demanding, dangerous and smelly.
Lol no. Most of those physically demanding jobs are now facilitated by the use of machines. Women welders, pipefitters, electricians, truckdrivers, crane operators etc. are becoming more common because you don't have to be a fucking ox to do them any more, you just have to be ordinarily healthy. You wanna move bricks these days? You use a damn forklift. Smelly? You know fish plants have mostly been 'womens work' for over a century, right? Think they aren't smelly? I spent several hours in one last sunday, that had been thoroughly cleaned up for the occasion, and it still stank to high heaven.

Women will do those jobs more as education and culture catch up with the advances in technology that are swiftly making those jobs less about gorilla-like muscles and more about intelligence, endurance, and education.

Right now almost no one tells young women that those jobs are open to them.

What's weird is running into men who think like you while my union pipefitter-steamfitter 60 year old husband welcomes women into his profession, works at making the jobs safer for all, and advises young women looking for non-academic careers of their options in trades work.
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Old 13th April 2018, 06:29 PM   #424860  /  #45
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I don't know, but if the bricklaying job is so much easier, why are there still so many women refusing to do it?

Overwhelmingly, in the most progressive countries, women still choose pink collar jobs.

You could say it's because of socialization, but you could also say that it is because blue-collar jobs are much more physically demanding, dangerous and smelly.
OMFG Cunt, you are either trolling or culturally deaf and blind.
How nice of you to say.
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Yes, men have more physical strength on average and therefore can push more bricks in a wheelbarrow. Yes, women traditionally chose jobs requiring endurance rather than physical strength. So why was strength more valued than endurance? Why brute force over more nimble fingers?
Endurance is another trait where men clearly outperform women. I am a fan of endurance athletes, and while I think extremely highly of some female athletes, I would never make the mistake of thinking they could outperform the males in those sports.

Ultra-swimming looks like it might be female-dominated, but really EVERY other sport they fall behind, in endurance, strength and speed.
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Quote:
it is because blue-collar jobs are much more physically demanding, dangerous and smelly.
Lol no. Most of those physically demanding jobs are now facilitated by the use of machines. Women welders, pipefitters, electricians, truckdrivers, crane operators etc. are becoming more common because you don't have to be a fucking ox to do them any more, you just have to be ordinarily healthy. You wanna move bricks these days? You use a damn forklift. Smelly? You know fish plants have mostly been 'womens work' for over a century, right? Think they aren't smelly? I spent several hours in one last sunday, that had been thoroughly cleaned up for the occasion, and it still stank to high heaven.
I've worked in fish plants. Tell me, how often did women win mixed events in the old cod cutting competitions? I only remember males competing against other males.
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Women will do those jobs more as education and culture catch up with the advances in technology that are swiftly making those jobs less about gorilla-like muscles and more about intelligence, endurance, and education.
Again, I don't think women are on top in endurance.

But I am saying that those physical advantages do carry over in a number of ways.

Not that they should, or that those differences should mean different starting wages.
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Right now almost no one tells young women that those jobs are open to them.
My brother has told many women over the years that they could apply. Very few do. None stay when they get a taste.

That's just one company, but it is because the work is very physical, and competing against much stronger workers (for raises etc.) would be discouraging.
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What's weird is running into men who think like you while my union pipefitter-steamfitter 60 year old husband welcomes women into his profession, works at making the jobs safer for all, and advises young women looking for non-academic careers of their options in trades work.
I would like to see more women in trades. For my part, I have taught several women to weld, just because it is usually not shared with them.

But equality of opportunity is cool, it doesn't assure equality of outcome.
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Old 13th April 2018, 07:03 PM   #424866  /  #46
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OMFG Cunt, you are either trolling or culturally deaf and blind.
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Old 13th April 2018, 07:06 PM   #424867  /  #47
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
That makes you look thoughtful...you must be really smart.
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Old 13th April 2018, 07:59 PM   #424868  /  #48
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Canada
I give up, Cunt.

Everything you say suggests, however often you slide around the issue, that you firmly believe women are now and will forever be a weak underclass with deservedly less economic power than men. Because they are physically weaker and therefore have less economic value.

And that, my friend, really sucks, is really dismaying, and is so distressingly wrong-headed.
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Old 13th April 2018, 08:12 PM   #424869  /  #49
Cunt
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Read my posts with the following stupid accent: Circum-polar region
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I give up, Cunt.
Too bad.

I was hoping you could understand me. I don't think you do.
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Originally Posted by borealis View Post
Everything you say suggests, however often you slide around the issue, that you firmly believe women are now and will forever be a weak underclass with deservedly less economic power than men.
I don't know the future, but with men being allowed to declare themselves women now, the future could be very different.
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Originally Posted by borealis View Post


Because they are physically weaker and therefore have less economic value.
not that women have less 'economic value', but that strength, speed and endurance have real economic value.
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Originally Posted by borealis View Post

And that, my friend, really sucks, is really dismaying, and is so distressingly wrong-headed.
what am I wrong about, exactly?

I don't even know what exactly that you disagree with? That women are dominated by males in every sport? Or that the differences in sport have nothing to do with performance in the labour market.

I would try to paraphrase you sucessfully, to show my understanding of your position, if I knew what you disagreed with.

But giving up is probably more productive for everyone. This couldn't be important enough to look into.

What do you think of this bit?



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Old 13th April 2018, 08:13 PM   #424870  /  #50
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Okay, lets try this. White, or Western men, have long had two ideals, Intellect and Athletics. This goes back to Ancient Greece, where Athens represented the Intellect, and Sparta the Physical or Athletic. Now even back then there was a division starting, one that has come down to us today as the stereotypes of Jocks and Nerds.

Nerd Homely, clumsy, intelligent
Jock Handsome, athletic, stupid.

Now according to your theory, Jocks should always make more money than Nerds.

Correct?
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